After watching a recent video link in this forum, where an officer would command a dog to "sit" behind cover, attempt to draw his gun, and the dog would try to bite the gun...either because it didn't like the sound of the gun, or because it viewed the gun as the toy reward after the sit...I wonder:

1) If the sport dog world is where many Police dogs come from, why is it that in ALL sport dog venues, the decoy does the shooting and also gets bitten? Why is it that ZERO sport dog venues have the handler fire against the decoy? Why are only small caliber blanks used?

Evidently, under most circumstances it would be an unwise police handler choice to send a dog to bite someone - in the open, from a distance, in broad daylight - that is known to be armed.

2) Why would (too) many sport trainers continue to have their dogs "fixate" on a prey item as a reward?

Evidently, it's easy training; it works, etc...IF the dog is to stay in sports.

If not, however, it becomes necessary to DECONDITION or COUNTER CONDITION...and it shouldn't be necessary.

The sporting dog venues should take heed of this...as the training changes involved for handlers in dog sports that wish to sell to the police, would allow for more efficient use of the buyers´ re-training time...

Andres,
Sorry, you're not being accurate there when you say that:

"Why are only small caliber blanks used?"


In ASR we use .32 cal/8 mm blanks, they're quite loud, let me tell ya!

Howdy Will. Are you calling me a liar for the ONE exception...from a rather obscure form of dog protection venue? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

...in which I will title my dog in next year, BTW.

The point(s) are still valid.

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1) If the sport dog world is where many Police dogs come from, why is it that in ALL sport dog venues, the decoy does the shooting and also gets bitten?

Andres....And im only talking Holland ok but its NOT in ALL the dog sport venues that the decoy does the shooting. In the IPO the decoy doesnt shoot. During the program the only shooting occurs during the obedience.

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Evidently, under most circumstances it would be an unwise police handler choice to send a dog to bite someone - in the open, from a distance, in broad daylight - that is known to be armed.

I doubt that there are many who would.

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2) Why would (too) many sport trainers continue to have their dogs "fixate" on a prey item as a reward?

Maybe becuase it works for the handler, the dog and the training method.

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Evidently, it's easy training; it works, etc...IF the dog is to stay in sports.

I dont see that this training is just aplicable to the sport dog. Training methodes are used in all combinations depending on what the dog reacts to best. Guidelines for sure, but the one dog will react to one method better than another.......not always but sometimes.

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The sporting dog venues should take heed of this...as the training changes involved for handlers in dog sports that wish to sell to the police, would allow for more efficient use of the buyers´ re-training time...

The buyers know exactly where and what training the dog has had and as far as I know no one restricts them in their retraining and Holland is one of the countrys that export dogs to other countrys. Not ALL export dogs come from the sport.

simple solution. don't buy a dog that's titled in a discipline that has training practices that you don't like. if you know a dog with a certain title is pre-conditioned to being aggressive toward gunfire, don't get the dog with that title. either get a dog with no title or a title that doesn't teach that like Hilary said.

there are many quirks that come with titles. my dog is titled in IPO and his open area search pattern is right out of the routine. you can almost see him going around the invisible blinds when he searches. he'll go out so far, then circle, come back to me, then go back out. we've had to work to correct that pattern and it's still a work in progress, but that's just one example of a quirk in a titled dog...

the bottom line is the people who train their dogs to get a title for the sole purpose of selling that dog for police work don't care what problems their training creates later down the road. they just want to get that title so the dog is worth more.

i think your pissing in the wind if you believe these sports are going to change their routines just so the dogs are better police candidates when titled...

Andres.....no, of course I'm not calling you a liar, just pointing out the factual "error" there, hehe. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


But seriously, *NO* venue of dog sports competition with the exception of actual Police Canine training will ever have the handler firing a weapon - the negative PR from the appearance of that would never be acceptable here in the U.S. or in Europe.

I am more of an advocate of real world dog training ( and I've likely had more active combat time than the vast majority of dog trainers ) but I would never consider adding firearms handling for the dog handler in any way, shape, or form in any type of competition. That should be trained in private without observation of the often ill-informed public.

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2) Why would (too) many sport trainers continue to have their dogs "fixate" on a prey item as a reward?

Evidently, it's easy training; it works, etc...IF the dog is to stay in sports.

If not, however, it becomes necessary to DECONDITION or COUNTER CONDITION...and it shouldn't be necessary.

The sporting dog venues should take heed of this...as the training changes involved for handlers in dog sports that wish to sell to the police, would allow for more efficient use of the buyers´ re-training time...

Where are you going with this one?

And more importantly, what would be correct way to reward such a dog in your view?

Just force on dogs that ought to be able to handle it anyways?

Obviously i am not getting this one...

there was relly nice thread abut forcing sleeve carrying and dogs that have calm bite and what it does to their focus on real game at hand. And i do agree with that. But i don't thing that is what you are talking about?

ok, that was some really baaaaad spelling...but i am too slow to hit edit in time right now. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

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but I would never consider adding firearms handling for the dog handler in any way, shape, or form in any type of competition. That should be trained in private without observation of the often ill-informed public.

Too true Will, theres enough right now , well at least over here of prejudgements about IPO and KNPV training. The general public often like the sensation aspect of the bitework but condemn the handlers in their eyes "as mistreating the dogs by hitting them during training with the soft sticks, prong collars, ecollars, making them "savage" by working them up into drive" etc etc. Geez add a firearm to all that and weve really got to take cover "from all the S hitting the fan". I just wish that the general public would come see what goes on before passing judgement without ever having been to any training program and seen and learnt what goes on and why.