I was just talking with a lady who competes top level with a Vizsla in OB and Agility. We were talking about working dogs and the difference between them and the show ring dogs. It was interesting to note that most breed standards shy away from including the dogs natural purpose if it was originally bred for work. She told me about the Vizslas breed standard and I just thought wouldn't it be cool if all working dogs were like this. I pulled the breed standard from the AKC for the Vizsla (a hunting dog) and here is what it says: "It is strongly emphasized that field conditioned coats, as well as brawny or sinewy muscular condition and honorable scars indicating a working and hunting dog are never to be penalized in this dog. The qualities that make a "dual dog" are always to be appreciated, not deprecated."

Now that is cool! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Yes, it would indeed be cool! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Too bad that it'll never happen for GSD's. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I have thought about the same thing.
Why is it,that breeders seem to focus of ONLY looks or ONLY working ability.?
If i were a breeders i would try to breed good looking dogs with working ability.For there is some working dogs that have had great success in the show ring as well.! = )

Well, given the choice, I'd have to go with "working ability".
There are so many of the "look pretty" dogs with no working ability ( at least here in the U.S. ) that I don't think I'd ever find a dog that was both able to look great by the GSD standards *and* work to the ability that I want. So if i have to make a choice, it's not a hard one to make...

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Well, given the choice, I'd have to go with "working ability".

Will,
I agree, and at the same time, appearance as it relates to structural conformation is a very important component of working ability. I can't even watch the German Shepherd ring at conformation shows, as I feel like I am looking at a ring full of crippled dogs. Thank GOD they don't have working temperaments!

I can't imagine a worse hell for a dog than having the temperament, desire and drive to do a job, but not the physical capacity to do so. In this way "good looks" are important, as in "good structure" that is noticeable when looking at the dog.

A fantasic read on this subject is an oldie but a goodie called "The Dog in Action" by McDowell Lyon. I'd be surprised if Ed didn't sell it here on his website....it's a staple.

T

I think the breed standard is only as good as the breeder wants it to be.
When I was active in the show ring, I put a CH on four different terrier breeds. I saw the trend swing from big Kerry Blues to small Kerry Blues. Bully type Bull Terriers to Terrier type Bull Terriers. Over exagerated heads on Border terriers, etc, etc, etc.
When a big named breeder or handler start winning with a dog that may be outside of the standard, the parade starts. Everyone wants to breed to the "great" Wesminister/Crufts/Montgomery, etc winner.
Does anyone really believe the over angulated American GSD, or the roach back German show dog is correct. Only the blind, deaf and dumb, but if it wins, lets breed to it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
Unfortunately, the same can be said for big winning working dogs.

Just a response to the Vizla message - I used to foxhunt, and our hunt used imported English Foxhounds in our hunt. These dogs are much larger, stronger/more muscular, heavier, slower but steadier than the American and Penn-Marydale foxhounds that other hunts normally use. Slower/steadier means horses can follow them better, enjoy the hunt better instead of running full-out after the hyper smaller-breed hounds. Anyway, the English hounds have longer ears, and are more dominant/aggressive than the other hounds - and they are of course kept in packs in the kennels - 20-30 adult intact males all kept together, and 20-30 adult intact females all kept together. Dogfights were common, and also of course injuries to ears and bodies occured on the hunt - going through barb-wire fences and through thorny brush. It was the policy of the hunt to "crop" the ears - not crop like doberman, but they simply chopped off about 1/2 the ears on these dogs, so they were more beagle-length or about as long as to the bottom of the jaw. The huntsman also showed his dogs in AKC conformation shows, and in fact had several go to Westminster! I saw one Westminster with a Plumm Run Hunt Hound in the final Hound-group line-up. I wondered if they had "set aside" the show-dog and kept him pristine for the show-ring. Nope! his ears were chopped, and he had scars visible on legs and body. He was in outstanding muscular condition, obviously a working Fox-hound, unlike the other foxhounds in the group, and the beagles - not a scar or blemish to be seen. I found that VERY interesting to see a "real" working dog at that level of conformation showing, scars/chopped ears and all.

molly

"There are so many of the "look pretty" dogs with no working ability"

And why is that?
Because breeders focus on looks alone.
There is no "i have no choice",scenario,everybody can breed good looking working dogs,if they wanted to.But they focus on only one thing..
I think it is sad.
I know,it is easy for me to say,i do not breed dogs.
But i know that it is hard,and not easy,but i still think that a working dog could look good too.

I recently attended an AKC regional show and walking through the exhibitor's parking lot I saw GSD, so deformed by that terrible angulation, that he could not jump into his owners SUV. Disgusting <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I think it's rediculous to say that a show line GSD is better looking than a working GSD. Flat back, sable working GSD is the "best looking" dog there is. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />