I have a question. When i first started learning about the gsd breed everyone i talked to and everything i read promoted the sport of schutzhund. however the more i read and the more i train with my dog it appears to me that the sport has become nothing more then just that a sport. from what i understand the original purpose of schutzhund was to evaluate the dog and its working ability. it appears to me that anymore the working ability of the dog has almost and again i say ALMOST nothing to with the dog. very few dogs are ever taken outta prey drive and i really wonder if the helper was to take off the sleeve how many of these dogs would still bite. it seems like the entire thing is nothing more then showing off the dogs obedience. so you get a dog with a lot of prey drive and show him that the sleeve is nothing more then a "rabbit" and then teach the rest. sure if you title the dog in schhII or even get to schhIII it looks good on the market when you breed but can a dog that got that title continue to work the frst time somebody kicks it or even jumps out and scares the heck outta it. from what i have seen it looks like the sport has become very soft and is more for pleasure then temperment testing. i would really like some other peoples input if anyone could help explain this to me. i don't mean to bash the sport in no way i would just like some opinions on its relation to say PP or even SAR.

We have 2 dogs in our club that just went to the national and let me tell you they will bite for real with sleeve or no sleeve, the rest of the dogs in the club I don't think so, but then again they are not national level dog just club level, our TD will put the appropriate pressure on the dog according to what he needs, maybe all you have been seeing is club level dog but from what I see in my club we are not going soft.

I think that the intense judgeing is part of the problem. The other is that on the whole we have become better trainers. If you think about owning a male that has a lot of aggression towards the decoy, what would keep him on the sleeve once he realizes that he isn't hurting the guy. How do you train a dog like that?

I think what a lot of people are looking for doesn't exist. If the dog is going to "fight" the decoy, why would he hang on to that sleeve? Dogs do what we condition them to do. There are sad PSD's as well as Sch, but not so much in ring being that it is so much cooler than the others <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Sorry had to put that in there. The revolution won't be televised. I might be though! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

A number of the dogs on our club will bite civil, including mine. When people talk about schutzhund going soft, I think they are talking more about fight drive. Although my dog shows a "willingness" to engage a helper that isn't in gear, I still don't think that has a lot to do with a true test of what he's really got. As much as I enjoy the sport, I don't think many schutzhund dogs are truely tested the way it was ment to.

I agree that all i have seen is club level dogs and will also agree that there are some dogs out there that will bite for real when needed to. what i'm saying is that there are a lot of dog with titles on them that would go and hide the first time somebody put some real pressure on the dog. i wish that the sport would be harder on the judging so that if the dog did not look like it would really do the work then the dog would not score well. instead it seems like the judging awards dogs that look like they are just like ok whatever i now i can win and this guy aint going to hurt me and look i can listen to my pack leader. i do agree it should be scored on listeningbut more or true bight rather then the amout of fun the dog is having

Being a club level dog or a national level dog doesn’t mean anything when you are talking about civil aggression. Schutzhund WAS a true test for the dog back when it was started. Thru the years the sport as changed and we lean more toward points and less toward the dog. I had a German helper tell me one time that Schutzhund is more a show of the trainer then the dog and I have to agree with him. I have seen show line GSDs make it to SchH III. I won’t start the debate of Schutzhund dogs doing police work. But if you are looking for a true test of your dog (Protection wise) you would have to look into a Ring sport. I just don’t think that Schutzhund has it anymore.

"what i'm saying is that there are a lot of dog with titles on them that would go and hide the first time somebody put some real pressure on the dog."

Yeah I have to agree with that, what I am saying is that to get to the national, your dog should be for real or he probably won't make it there, so it is still tuff for dogs to get to national level, this is just what I see with our 2 dogs in the club, I don't know about others so my point of view is kind of narrow I guess.

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... But if you are looking for a true test of your dog (Protection wise) you would have to look into a Ring sport. I just don’t think that Schutzhund has it anymore...

Matt,

I agree (to a point). But I think it still depends on the handler/helper/judge. There are still handlers/helpers/judges out there that demand the most from the dog (ie, they want to see a hard dog, with true aggression. Basically, what the dog should be).

Those handlers that choose to find and work that type of dog may lose points simply because of the type of dog they choose to work. But they have my respect. They'd rather work that type of dog and lose points than work a "points" dog.

And the helpers/judges that expect to see the same type of dog Trialed may get a bad rap by sport people because they work the dog too hard (helper) and judge the dog too hard (judge), so they may not be invited to catch dogs or judge a trial by certain groups.

Schutzhund CAN still work as designed, but you need the right helper and/or judge to make sure the weak dogs don't get through.

Scott,

With out sounding harsh I disagree. I train and trial in Schutzhund and with that said it is a sport. nothing more. Very few Sch dogs are making it to the street these days and if they do they go thru a training program to help put a little defence on the dog. Most Sch dog work in prey and only in prey. When Schutzhund was started they founding fathers had very good intentions, BUT Schutzhund has now involved into a sport to show case your dog for breeding. There are not that many Schutzhund trainers that train police dogs there are some but not many. Police Depts with good training programs are buying green dogs with little to no training and doing the work them selves. Which in the long run puts out a better product.

As for as the national level dogs being "hard" most are not. Pedro, Bastin, Django......ect are prey monsters ad their trainers will tell you the same thing. I have had the pleasure of working all of these dogs in trials and can say this from experience. If the kind of presure is put on these dogs that is put on any Police are ring dog these national level dogs would have a hard time dealing with it. Just the cold hard truth.

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Police Depts with good training programs are buying green dogs with little to no training and doing the work them selves. Which in the long run puts out a better product.

true and its a lot cheaper too. Also a green dog is taught from scratch so negative training parts that the dog has learnt u dont have to work as hard to recondition. Better to put the energy in teaching than re-teaching sometimes.