I have a male border collie who will be two in January. I also own several of the Leerburg DVDs, which I didn't get until he was 18 months. My question is on grip. Jack seems to have a very nice drive for the ball. He works for his ball on a rope in all exercises and while I hold the ball nothing takes his attention away except someone physically touching him and then only for a split second to look and then he’s back at the ball. His grip however is just not there. He doesn’t really try and bite for the ball; if I am doing the drive building exercise as it shows on the tape he really only jockeys himself in a better position to catch the ball if thrown but not make an attempt at actually taking it from me or grabbing the ball. If I throw or pop the ball up for him he will run to get it and drop it at my feet and do the border collie stair. Is this a drive problem or is this just a breed issue that will not affect his work? My goal for him is to be a search and rescue dog. I have started TTD and in the first baby steps he seems to do pretty well. We are only slowed down by my lack of a helper, but an upcoming move should settle this issue for us. He will play tug with other toys and things, but will only tug with his ball on a rope if he holds the rope otherwise I can just pull the ball out of his mouth. I am really just wondering if I should give up trying to get his grip and bite correct as he will not being doing any bite work or if I should keep at it because it relates in some other way to the drive? He will run with me with the ball and hold it if I ask him to and will also deliver to hand, but he would prefer to spit it out and stair. He does into my arms well, but I think he sees it has a hold it type command. Any advice would be great, but I feel like am slamming my head against a wall with him at this point.

I don't have that much experience with BC's but what you are describing sounds like the way they *would* respond.

They are not bred for that deep bite like a GSD as they herd completely differently.

Since you are not doing schutzhund, I am not sure the drive to play tug is essential.....

You need a good reward system and whatever turns your dog on is what I think you should build on. Something the dog will go bonkers for then you use that as the reward during training.

There are some folks out that think only a dog that will play tug has enough drive for search work but seems like a lot of good hardworking dogs out there that will work for a ball or food reward. I know "possessiveness" is a good trait but am unsure of why some consider it necessary. Would like to see clarification (puts on hardhat)

If you throw the ball into the bushes will he search nonstop for it? That is what I would worry about if he would not.

The TTD is a good way to get started. I have seen a few BCs but the ones I have have been awesome dogs that work nonstop.

Have you lined up a team to work with when you move? Since you are starting with TTD, I am assuming the plans are for a wilderness dog not a disaster dog (where tug would be more important since you can't take food or throw a ball on a rubble pile).

Jack will do anything for his ball. He will even search for it in stinging bushes (we are in England at the moment) and not give up. If I accidently throw it up a tree, he will lay at the tree and stair back from the tree to me. Between food and his ball, he goes for the ball everytime. I am sure he has that drive for SAR, but bought the tapes after I had brought this out of him, so I wasn't sure if I started it all wrong and that is why i can't get it now.

As for "possessiveness", he just doesn't have it in regaurds to me at all. Even with tug, if I let him win, he will do a victory lap and then he is right back at me trying to get me to tug again. That said if another dog comes up he will defend his ball, but with me he wants to give it to me. Which makes sense when you think if it was sheep, he would want to go get them and then hold them to me with the stair.

He does play tug and love it, but will only play with his bite roll, a glove, the rope part of his ball, something along those lines. This is part of the reason I thought it might be a me problem with his grip for the ball.

For SAR I would like to start out with wilderness and hope to move on from there. However if Jack only makes it to wilderness then that's fine I can start another dog for my other goals. I am moving back to my hometown after spending sometime overseas this coming April and plan to meet up with a couple teams when I am back over the hoildays to see if I like them and they like me sort of deal.

But thanks for your advice, I think I will take a break from the drive building for now, and use what I have. Then I will get him looked at by the search team and see what they think.

Border Collies don't have good grips.

I would not worry. I think the TTD will pay off for later airscent work. Focus on reading your dog as well! BCs seem to have the obsessive quallities to be very good at this. I would have one if I could get past those eyes <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I probably would only do TTD if I were doing Wilderness - Disaster and Wilderness don't really cross train well from what I have been told.

I think the disaster dog is really more of a detector dog (like drugs, arson only they are detecting live human scent)and never has to rely on a ground scent picture......other differences as well.