I have a couple of issues regarding the H&B (NOT THE SPORT KIND) that I would like to discuss:

Assuming a good, balanced dog, what are the pros and cons of the helper doing the "correcting" while teaching dogs to hold and bark?

Is the answer to the above question different if the dog is more prey driven than defensive? What if the dog really likes to fight?

Should the dog be taught to remain static - at a fixed distance - or to move around relative to the helper? Does this decision affect the answer to the first question?

What are appropriate items for "correcting" if the helper must do it? eg. helper use of an ecollar transmitter, prong collar, whip, stick, other items...all of the above?

 Quote:

I have a couple of issues regarding the H&B (NOT THE SPORT KIND) that I would like to discuss:

Assuming a good, balanced dog, what are the pros and cons of the helper doing the "correcting" while teaching dogs to hold and bark?

Is the answer to the above question different if the dog is more prey driven than defensive? What if the dog really likes to fight?

Should the dog be taught to remain static - at a fixed distance - or to move around relative to the helper? Does this decision affect the answer to the first question?

What are appropriate items for "correcting" if the helper must do it? eg. helper use of an ecollar transmitter, prong collar, whip, stick, other items...all of the above?

first i'll address the distance/style of hold (circle vs. down). i think that depends on the dog. i would rather have my dog down about 8-10 feet away from the decoy because generally the down is the more controlled position. the dog is less likely to grab a passive suspect from the down position whereas circling is a more excited state and could be prone to more accidental bites. along with this however, could come a lack of barking. i have seen several dogs who would not bark at a decoy while in the down position (just an intense stare). that can be worked on and i'd rather have that to work on than constantly battling a dirty dog.

as far the helper giving corrections, i don't mind if the helper gives e-collar corrections. the dog doesn't know who the correction is coming from. as far as stick hits, if the dog has questionable nerves, i wouldn't want the helper hitting him. if the dog does have to engage the decoy after the bark/hold, he could remember previous trainings where the decoy "won" because of the stick hits. if the dog has good nerves and fight drive, stick hits from the decoy are ok. not the kind of hits that a dog receives during bite training (on the back), but hits on the dog's front legs. this should only be done for proofing. the dog should be taught the hold/bark on-leash obviously and should be pretty clean on-leash before moving to off-leash. if the dog constantly has to be corrected off-leash, he should be moved back on to on-leash.

just my thoughts...

Andres: Good to see you made it back from the beach. Hope ya got a sunburn <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

We do a 10 ft. distance from the decoy and have the dog move towards or away from the decoy at that distance.

I'll let a VERY trusted decoy correct my dog on the B&H with the e-collar but that’s only if i can't see what’s going on. With the view that the decoy is a sparring partner for my dog I never allow the decoy to make any leash corrections. Hit my dog with a stick and you'll just piss him off. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Matt, Tim... do your dogs know the difference (in a building search) between finding to Hold and bark vs. Finding to bite?

Quote: as far as stick hits, if the dog has questionable nerves, i wouldn't want the helper hitting him.

Why would a police dog have nerves like this?

 Quote:

Matt, Tim... do your dogs know the difference (in a building search) between finding to Hold and bark vs. Finding to bite?

no. our dogs are always trained to find/bark.

 Quote:

Quote: as far as stick hits, if the dog has questionable nerves, i wouldn't want the helper hitting him.

Why would a police dog have nerves like this?

good question. why are there cops out there that shouldn't be cops? why do some agencies use inferior equipment? reality is there are probably police dogs out there that shouldn't be...

 Quote:

Matt, Tim... do your dogs know the difference (in a building search) between finding to Hold and bark vs. Finding to bite?

We teach both as separate exercises or commands. I fell in love with the "LA Building Search" (my phrase) that was discussed on the boards in a prior thread about 2 years ago.
I believe it was Lou that detailed sending the dog to locate the decoy with a separate B&H command.... then recalling the dog….giving a warning…. and re-sending him with a bite command.

My dog was young enough when I got him that we were able do this. We’ve proofed it as best we can in muzzle and through one non-bite training accident and it appears to be working. Were working with our new dog on this now.

IMO, the ONLY pro to having the helper use stick hits to TEACH the dog a poper Hold and Bark...is that it's faster. Everything else in my view is cons. I think that to TEACH a dog that it must fight (that the decoy is SERIOUS) should not be done in the context of the hold and bark, but in the context of the bite.

If the dog is very prey driven...and ALREADY KNOWS the hold and bark...then I think it's a good idea for the decoy to be quick, with the whip, to increase the prey intensity.

If the dog is defensive and ALREADY KNOWS the H&B...I DON'T think it's a good idea...because many times the intensity will already be there, but the confidence will not. Defensive dogs are (IMO) easier to control, and generally need training to enhance their self-confidence. So in TEACHING the H&B to defensive dogs, the decoy perhaps should cower more...to make the dog think that its intense barking is "defeating" the decoy.

If the dog REALLY likes to fight, and IS BEING TRAINED in the H&B, I think it's fine if the decoy GRADUALLY corrects using items at hand. The caveat is that the decoy must know what and when to do the "correcting", and how to reward when the dog counters in the H&B, while staying clean.

Should the dog be taught to remain static - at a fixed distance - or to move around relative to the helper?

Matt, we train our only 4 intervention dogs (in the entire country!!!) to use two separate commands...much like you do. The dog must wait to bite...only when given the bite command. We "try" to teach the dogs to keep a safe distance away from the decoy, but not static, neither sitting nor barking, and we don't teach the dogs to come off the bite to H&B. If it's to release there will be a recall, or a recall and a down.

Tim, you wrote, "i would rather have my dog down about 8-10 feet away from the decoy". Is your training goal to send a dog into a search to H&B and for the dog to "down" 8-10 ft from the decoy?

The reason why we don't teach a static H&B is that in a confined space it's not practical for the dog.

Regarding the decoy correcting the dog (for those that use this system) in the H&B, I would like to learn for what kinds of dogs should this be used? At what age? How? How often? What is the training goal? When does the decoy reward with a bite?