 Request for citations
#91596 - 12/07/2005 10:25 PM |
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Reg: 09-22-2005
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Loc: Minnesota
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There's a short opinion piece concerning electronic training collars by Karen Overall making the rounds on the net. She's opposed to them, of course. Which is no great surprise.
She quotes Lou Castle's "Myths" article:
For example, the statement: " Major veterinary universities have tested E-collars since the mid 60's when they were invented. No evidence of any damage, Physiological or psychological has ever been found." is patently and wholly false. For the evidence re: data - see above. As for the initial statement - it's WRONG. It's a MYTH. The specialty college (ACVB) even conducted a census a few years ago to see if we could find ANY truth to this and there was NONE. We couldn't get anyone to say that they had - or knew someone who had - participated in such tests and studies.
I'm not trying to rekindle the whole e-collar debate. But I thought it likely that someone on this board might know of the studies referred to.
Can anyone provide citations to academic studies that find that e-collars can be used without causing harm?
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Re: Request for citations
[Re: Jeff Dege ]
#91597 - 12/08/2005 12:31 AM |
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Jeff,
Why not ask Lou directly on his website? He's the one being quoted ( ? ) by Overhill, he'd be in the best position to answer that, I'd think.
And from all that I've read of Overhill, she may have a whole lot of letters following her name, but she lives in an academic ivory tower. I think that she's typical for most of the college professor types that many of us knew in the past - a lot of theoretical knowledge but without the ability to apply it down in the trenches where it counts.
Just my opinion, of course.
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Re: Request for citations
[Re: Will Rambeau ]
#91598 - 12/08/2005 01:11 AM |
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Reg: 05-31-2005
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Loc: Indiana
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At any point, how could such a minute amount of current cause permnament tissue damage. I would love to see someone explain this to me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I guess if you shocked the animal in the exact same location thousands of time over and never moved the collar. Come on lets get real here, any device has the potential for abuse even one of those head halters thingamadoos .
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Re: Request for citations
[Re: Brad Trull ]
#91599 - 12/08/2005 08:17 AM |
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Reg: 09-22-2005
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Loc: Minnesota
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I've emailed Lou, but have had no response.
As for tissue damage, in her piece Overhill was talking about behavioral problems. She cited a couple of studies that indicated that e-collars could create behavioral problems.
Which doesn't, to me, mean much. We all know you can ruin a dog by improper use of an e-collar. Just like you can ruin a dog with improper use of nearly any training tool.
The question is whether there is any method of using an e-collar that avoids those problems. The studies she cites don't ask that question. I was hoping to some pointers to studies that did.
We all have our own experience - some with only a few dogs, some with hundreds. But some people are only convinced by properly-conducted scientific studies.
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Re: Request for citations
[Re: Jeff Dege ]
#91600 - 12/08/2005 09:57 AM |
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Reg: 06-09-2004
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Jeff, check your PMs
PetIDtag.com Keep ID on your pet! Profits go to rescues in NC |
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Re: Request for citations
[Re: Will Rambeau ]
#91601 - 12/08/2005 10:37 AM |
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Reg: 05-13-2005
Posts: 220
Loc: northern Illinois
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but she lives in an academic ivory tower. I think that she's typical for most of the college professor types that many of us knew in the past - a lot of theoretical knowledge but without the ability to apply it down in the trenches where it counts.
Haha... Thats my little Brother... 2 Masters and he still cant find his arse with both hands <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
You always get the dog you deserve... |
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Re: Request for citations
[Re: Jason Shipley ]
#91602 - 12/08/2005 11:41 AM |
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Reg: 07-26-2005
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Loc: NJ, USA
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In my line of work we often must start from the teachnings of academia's finest. So as I sit through countless lectures and presentations looking for that elusive connection between theoretical and practical....I must say frustration sometimes gets the better of me, so I sit back take a deep breath and imagine the oh so theoretically correct speaker balancing his/her check book..........
http://img344.imageshack.us/img344/2629/image0017mc.gif
heh heh, then I feel much better.......
Val
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Re: Request for citations
[Re: Valerie Tietz-Kelly ]
#91603 - 12/08/2005 06:13 PM |
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Reg: 05-31-2005
Posts: 187
Loc: Indiana
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Jeff:
Didnt you answer your own question <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> If any training tool can be misused then cant any training tool be used in a manner to achieve the desired result ?? What does it matter if some obscure study shows anything ? Training tools are only as good as the trainers using them ?
Are you looking here for some " proof " because you are wanting to show someone that ecollars are humane training tools; this for a school paper ?
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Re: Request for citations
[Re: Brad Trull ]
#91604 - 12/09/2005 11:58 AM |
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Reg: 09-22-2005
Posts: 17
Loc: Minnesota
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Jeff:
Didnt you answer your own question <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> If any training tool can be misused then cant any training tool be used in a manner to achieve the desired result ??
No, that doesn't really follow. There are plenty of tools out there that simply don't work, no matter what you do with them.
Are you looking here for some " proof " because you are wanting to show someone that ecollars are humane training tools; this for a school paper ?
I'm not looking for proof, I'm looking for studies. The Purely Positive crowd has a fixation on academic studies. When they quote Skinner as having found that aversive training methods don't work, it's useful to be able to point to the last 40 years of behavioral research showing that Skinner was wrong.
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Re: Request for citations
[Re: Jeff Dege ]
#91605 - 12/09/2005 12:31 PM |
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Reg: 11-20-2002
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Loc: Colorado
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Your quest to give rabid dogs studies is bound to fail. Sure it is nice to shove it in their face, but since they don't know reality as it exists on this planet, what difference do you think a study is going to make?
To me this is like talking raw diet to some people. Their eyes glaze over and the speak with religious fervor. I can understand where you are coming from though, I like to convince those people that their dogs look exactly the same as they ever did and have no extra energy. Sadly enough, most of the time my dogs look just as good, and have more energy.
Bottom line, reasonable people can stop and think, and at least give your thoughts consideration, and then use your ideas or put them in the trash.
I am smarter than my dog, your just not. |
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