He's not sensitive to anything that I know of now except delivery men.

And the trainer he stood down.

And BTW, "reactive to deliver men" is a problem, and you are receiving good advice for it.



If there's no problem, why did you make the first post? And why did you title it "Smart but Dangerous"? (These are rhetorical; I don't need answers.)


Also, reactive doesn't mean "brain problem." And desensitizing, containment, and ob are still ALL THE SAME RX even if it's "only delivery men."









Edited by Connie Sutherland (01/10/2012 10:24 AM)
Edit reason: addition

 Quote: Rovena Kessinger

Question about training:

Should a dog's "place", like a bed on the floor, be in view of you or not?

Yes. You can't train it otherwise. I feel sure you can train yourself not to reward attention devices.




I don't know if I'm supposed to be like totally starting from scratch like in the DVD with NILIF, or just doing a modified version and adding training, etc. as if he's a few weeks into it. Know what I mean?

What DVD? NILIF is a way of life.

"You said, "dropping all but the most special treats out of his mouth, so he may have to get a little hungrier". This might also be an indication that you are working your dog too hard and he is stressed."


Do you know that training sessions should be a few minutes max, sessions frequenct rather than lengthy? They should. No one, you OR the dog, should have time to become stressed or frustrated. Every session starts and ends on a high note: something you KNOW he will do and be m/r for.

If you are inconsistent with NILIF you will condition your dog to push boundaries to test if he can trust your guidance and instructions. Being consistent with NILIF is a way of life that sets up your dog to be able to understand what you are asking of him, and to know what to expect from you. When you dog can't trust you, he is going to be anxious and stressed, and that is going to bring out pushy behaviour.

 Quote: Jenny Arntzen

If you are inconsistent with NILIF you will condition your dog to push boundaries to test if he can trust your guidance and instructions. Being consistent with NILIF is a way of life that sets up your dog to be able to understand what you are asking of him, and to know what to expect from you. When you dog can't trust you, he is going to be anxious and stressed, and that is going to bring out pushy behaviour.

This is a great post.

This dog needs needs NILIF and absolute consistency, along with perfect ob and never-fail inability to meet people entering the yard/home:

... he guards. When he guards, he becomes FEROCIOUS. He turns into a different dog, growling and snarling and lunging and snapping, actually "cornering" people in the middle of the yard, because they are too scared to move. .... it escalated to the point where he almost got somebody. The first couple times, I was able to walk up and grab his collar. The last time, Mondo didn't want me to stop him. He kept slipping just out of my grasp, and trying to get behind the guy, who was jumping all over the place, trying to keep facing him and to keep him from biting.

He does stay by the porch, not bothering people who are just walking down the street, but anybody who comes into the yard is in danger.

Mondo wanted to attack the trainer when she came to the house, but she stood very still and didn't look at him ....

10 PAGES of yet the SAME stuff! AMAZING.

How can you possibly help someone that just wants to talk about 'stuff' & not really put to use the good information presented here.

Less talk MORE action! Train the dog. You have enough info here to work on that should take you many MONTHS to a lifetime to reliably achieve.

GET TO WORK!

 Quote:

Now, maybe he was abused by a delivery man, and DOES have a single-issue abuse thing, and I don't know if that is a brain problem or not, but when I can see him be afraid of something initially, and learn very quickly if it is or isn't really going to hurt him, I just can't believe he has whatever brain problem causes fear of vacuum cleaners forever. It's not denial, or caring if he is or isn't neurotic, it's something that seems to matter in how I deal with him.

I think you should quit analyzing, start training and see what happens. If he evens out into a well mannered responsive dog that doesn't have an inclination to ferociously charge and bark at people then you know it was handler error and that you have a pretty solid dog

It's his internal wiring/instincts that makes him initially react one way or another.

As far as the "one time abuse" idea that virtually never happens. Period. Stop. It's more in the dog's nature how they are going to respond rather than abuse. The majority of scared dogs are truly just scared - be it from nature or lack of socialization. They usually don't have some long history of abuse or single time of abuse.

Dogs don't generalize well (which is why you need to train and proof in a variety of locations) so even if a dog did have a bad experience with one type of person somewhere, they're not going to carry it over to a different person in a brand new situation.

 Quote: Anne Jones

10 PAGES of yet the SAME stuff! AMAZING.

How can you possibly help someone that just wants to talk about 'stuff' & not really put to use the good information presented here.

Less talk MORE action! Train the dog. You have enough info here to work on that should take you many MONTHS to a lifetime to reliably achieve.

GET TO WORK!

Well said, this thread is EPIC...and little about training mostly just about how her dog "only" flips out in certain situations...never mind the fact that he flips out is ABNORMAL.

And never mind that the Rx is the same...when I see ACTION I'll believe in her intentions...all the "yes buts" are contradictions and classic invalidations!

I am wondering just how stupid I am for trying again and again. Same result each time. What's that definition of crazy? Make the same mistake over and over...I'm crazy.

 Quote: Jenny Arntzen

If you want to see really good clicker training technique in action, I highly recommend Leslie McDevitt's Control Unleashed. She really helped me understand the relationship between clicking the behaviour, and delivering the reward.

OK thanks. I have problems like after time with knowing when to click; my trainer didn't do the click as release thing (I think, I really don't know now), and was more like click the instant he does it. I thougth you were supposed to click a moment afterwards at first, then longer and longer as he sits or stays longer and longer. But I'll check that out.

 Quote:

You said, "dropping all but the most special treats out of his mouth, so he may have to get a little hungrier". This might also be an indication that you are working your dog too hard and he is stressed.

He's not stressed. This occurred over time, with increasing rejection of lesser and lesser food. He's just not that gluttonous of a dog. Extra sharp cheddar cheese is about all i have left that he cares about. That's why I tried to go to tugging, since he really likes that. But now he's getting picky about which tug-toys are good or not good enough.

I think he needs to be hungerier; he's probably never hungry, and I need to be more active/interesting, like in the Michael Ellis videos. I realize the toys are kind of complicated to do, but he does enjoy that as a play break after doing a few commands. He focuses on me fine, in fact I have a question about that I'll save for antoher time. He is also good about doing the commands he knows (with a little too much anticipation, have to back up and not always "down" after "sit"), and actually learning new ones.

But I'm not doing marker training right. I do know that, despite his learning things anyway. He looks at my hands a lot, I don't know the difference between luring adn bribing, etc.

 Quote:

I hope you realize that the kinds of changes you are hoping to make are going to take time, quite likely months, if not years. It is important to learn to enjoy your dog, who he is, and work on building consistency in your handling skills (it is your handling that is going to change, your dog is conditioned to your handling).

I don't care if it takes forever. I know it's a life-long thing. Things are fine as they are now; we're actually all very happy, lol.

(I read that calming book.)

 Quote:

One last point, every dog is unique, and brings a unique combination of age, gender, breed, history, temperament, intelligence, aptitude, sociability, independence/pack minded. Comparing different dogs and trying to explain their behaviour in relation to each other is not going to be productive.

That's what I figured.

 Quote:

With a reactive dog you are dealing with management, obedience, NLIF, and behaviour. It is a challenge, but there is never a dull moment!

With a non-reactive dog, I think you are dealing with the same thing. I actually think he's a good dog to learn to train with, not a problem or difficult dog, etc.

He just wants to kill delivery men, and men who admire him at the vet. Not the vet himself, he's OK after all.

As always ,thanks.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

And BTW, "reactive to deliver men" is a problem, and you are receiving good advice for it.

I know. Thank you.

 Quote:

If there's no problem, why did you make the first post? And why did you title it "Smart but Dangerous"? (These are rhetorical; I don't need answers.)

It's OK; I've said what I originally wanted to know several times. I realize now I may not have been asking a very specific, well-stated, or even answerable question.

Restated in a better way now that I can frame it in terms that make more sense, hopefully:

We are fine as we are. If nothing ever changes, everything will be OK, becuase I have physically made it so he won't get to anybody.

However, hypothetically, with continued training, how likely is it that that I could get to the point that I could head off an impending attack, or stop an attack in progress with a command? Now, I realize that nobody can answer my question with anything like certainty, and it was pretty stupid on my part to think that you could. I just didn't now if "mean dogs" could ever easily be called off or not, with any kind of training. But then I watched the DVD's, and thought maybe they could.

In my opinion, from being with him, and seeing him adapt to various situations, and from what I've learned from you guys the last few days, he was not out of his mind with fear or irrational emotion during the last attack, which is the definition of "reactive". Instead, I think he is just a dog with the right set of genes and background to cause him to quickly learn that he can get away with attacking people if they do something doesn't like, such as enter the yard.

I maintain that the escalation from fearful half-hearted attack to full-blown, almost-bit-the-guy situation was the opposite of his initial timid reaction to the german shephereds which then progressed to complete ignoring. Both were based on learning. Both occurred after a just couple of exposures. The same thing happened with being scared/aggressive to people outside the car. He learns very fast. He adapted very quickly to the environment he found himself in. He thinks it's all great; believe me. He's a happy dog. He wants to please me because I treat him well, but he'd like to boss me around too. That's the line I can't let him cross, I know.

The reaction to people on walks is intermediate, and could probably still go either way; most people are now OK, but I bet the occasional very unusual person might still scare him, and if he had a bad experience it could tip him towards increased aggression. This will become better with time and me not allowing anythign bad to happen, I predict. I'm going to make sure we get some exposure he doesn't lose what he's gained over the winter.

I also have to get thru vet appts., which is yet another hurdle, but we did it the first time in the worst, most inexperienced way possible, so I'm confident we can handle that.

 Quote:

Also, reactive doesn't mean "brain problem." And desensitizing, containment, and ob are still ALL THE SAME RX even if it's "only delivery men."

I understand, and this is the reason I'm here. Desensitization as far as passing people on walks will continue naturally; that is not difficult, he doesn't react that much, his zone is very small now. With the territorial situation, at some point I will go back to square one with that process and try to desensitize him to that people coming into the yard, but as you taught me I need to make sure he can focus on me with distraction, etc. first.

I really coulnd't have defined it like this without the irritating process I've had to go through with you guy, I appreciate it, and I plan to keep asking training questions as long as you keep answering them.

I know what's wrong; I thought this was going to be much more scientific. I know now that it's an art, not a science, so endless questions about technicalities of terminology and "yes, but" questions won't get me anywhere for now. With a science, you can start basic and build, and questions like that can be answered. With an art, I think you just have to jump in and learn those subjective and intuitive things before you can ask meaningful questions.

Does that make sense? To anybody?

OK, training questions only now. I've got it figured out (for now, could be wrong, but need to learn more with time to see that.)