Hi Benjamin
In the human life a couple have children, now to illustrat i will put my own parents as guinee pigs
I was born in June 1940 during the last world war, now at that time of me being born that made four children,
Mother took us to the air raid shelter one day and after going home after the raid, the house was no longer standing Bombed as we lived at that time in London.Plus her Sister went with it as she chose to stay at home
We were evacutated to a small town 70 miles away Dad at that time was serving in the RAF knew nothing of what had happened, so to push forwards in time,
After the war five other children born, joined the family So now we hnave two parents and nine children
Now if there is no Pack Structure in other words if our parents just let us run free and do as we wished, when we wished what would become of us Nine Kids
BUT' that did not happen, although times were Really tough we had a very happy but strict up bringing and it payed off, all the Children did okay in life nothing spectaculor, but made there own lives free of any troubles and if our parents were alive today they would say they did a good job of bring up a large family
Now if that is not PACK Structure then i do not know what is
It is no different to a human taking over as the Pack leader to a Dog, No, certainly on the same basis
Just to say our mother was put on a train with us four kids in November 1940. Dumped off at a strange town with no where to live and of course she knew no one there,
But her Strengh and Resilence got her a place to put us, Her two Oldest daughters were taken from her and she never saw them again for four years
It was six months later Dad in the RAF found out where we had been sent to and he still had a War to fight at the same time
I think you need to think very hard on what you believe is right

 Quote: Mallory Kwiatkowski

so, yes, pack drive and dominance are genetic, but on different levels.All dogs are genetically built to be dominant over weaker energy. Not all dogs are genetically built to be the top dog.

I know I was going to stay out of this thread from now on (and I will) but the above quote is what I was trying to say in an earlier post and you put it more eloquently. I think this might be PART of what Ben's issues are...I got the impression that he thought that we were saying that ALL dogs stive to be alpha and that's just not true.

eloquent??? i am honored.
i tend to ramble, as my brain is faster than my fingers.
I didn't want to get into this, for fear of looking like a moron(but since i am eloquent now.....)
i read back through, and it seemed like there was a huge misunderstanding due to some people(*cough*ben)being all over the map.

What confused me from the beginning and still does is the insistence that there isn't any studies or consensus on the social interactions and dymanics of order within the dog pack. And continued to call it dog pack theory. Well its a theory much like gravity is a theory. In fact silly me, thought that any body who is even casually familiar with dogs reconized pack behavior.
I just found it very hard to figure what he was after, is he seriously questioning the pack behavior of dogs or is it training methods espoused by Ed and Cindy he is on about?
Randy

Benjamin,

Published studies are simply one person/company/foundation/whatever's opinion derived from experimentation. I keep seeing you ask for studies, when many people here have trained dozens of dogs in their "rawest" forms (meaning SchH, PPD, or PSD prospects)and more importantly watched seasoned helpers/decoys/instructors work with hundreds of dog/handler teams. Every one of us that has seen a dog handler team with outing issues knows that a handler having issues with the out is also having issues elsewhere provided the dog and handler have bonded. It is a rank issue that does not exist in a vaccum by itself by just showing up on the out. In SchH, you would commonly see that same dog not allow the handler to cradle him. There are no secrets on the field. Your relationship with the dog is crystal clear whether it be good or bad. Rank is not established by kicking, hitting, rolling, or correcting as you mentioned before. Rank is established by being a fair, strong and consistant leader that takes responsibility for everything that Alpha is supposed to.

Benjamin, have you ever or have you ever seen anyone train a dog in drive to out before? It sure does not sound like it to me.

I sure hope you never have a dog with any drive whatsoever around if you have or ever decide to have a family. Operating under the assumption that pack structure in domesticated canines is bunk will create a very unhealthy situation.

John
100% right, only last Sunday Morning, Top Trainer Rinus Bastissen was working with Six month old Goran and me, and a Helper was using a Sack, for the pup
Rinus at stages said to bring the Pup to Me just as it is on the Leerburg DVDs which i have viewed, So it sure does a lot to the Pup in Confidence and bringing closer to the Handler,
But i wondered when i was bringing Goran to me why about twelve onlookers was laughing at us
Goran was weeing himself as i cradled him in my arms unknowing to me at the time, One said he was waiting for me to get a wet hand, they thought it so funny at the time

Holy Wow. I sure miss a lot when I am sick!! I read about 80% of these posts fully but I admit to skimming the long ones or I wouldn't be able to get in a response before I passed out from my cold medicine.

As far as the book cited being "too old" let me ask you how you think that wolves 40, 50, or 100 years ago, didn't act like the wolves of today? Or maybe you think people back then were not as smart. Funny. They seem to have created things like cars and airplanes prior to the year 2000. Ever heard of this guy called Einstein? Or how about Leonardo Da Vinci? I know nothing of what they wrote is "current" but maybe you could show a little faith.

Regarding pack, pack structure, pack drives, natural dominance... Benjamin.. have you ever even seen a wolf? Or are you writing all this crap while staring a little plush husky and daydreaming?

Look up Shaun Ellis. Read any of the following books:
Spirit of The Wolf by Shaun Ellis and Monty Sloan.
The Art of Being a Wolf, by Anne Menatory.
Wolves of The High Arctic presented by the International Wolf Center (Photos by L. David Mech)
The Arctic Wolf, Living With The Pack, by L. David Mech
Trail of The Wolf, by R.D. Lawrence
The Way Of The Wolf, by L David Mech

From personal experience WITH WOLVES, and wolfdogs of very high content - pack structure is natural, inborn, it is instinct. Some wolves are literally born dominant, others are born into their ranks. The oldest wolf is not always the alpha, the wolf that wins is the alpha. The beaten foe does not necessary leave the pack. Young wolves do not grow up and automatically leave, most wolf packs are family units - the wolves that go and leave the pack to establish their own territory are dominant animals that either lost the dominance battle or never challenged the alpha and were pressured out of the pack. Lone wolves are generally older animals, lone pairs are only lone because they have not mated and produced pups yet.

There is a reason for all ranks within a wolf pack. Dominant members lead the pack. Alphas say where to go, what to do, what to hunt, when to get it, and because they are the strongest (though not the largest, most often the largest wolves in the pack are the betas, the enforcers, the wolves that protect the pack) Betas are needed as very strong hunters, they are one of the specialists of the pack, they primarily scout and protect the pack from predators or other packs. Their are the hunters, and their is the omega, and the babysitter(s) - every wolf has a job. In NO WAY, SHAPE, or FORM are lower ranking members oppressed or abused. Fights in the wild are very rare and usually only occur because of dominance issues with new additions to the pack or up and coming youngsters feeling their oats.

Wolves are not dogs, dogs are not wolves. Very true. But Horses are not wolves either, elephants are not wolves.. hey guess what, neither are deer or elk or a million other species on this planet that live in groups and conform to a heirarchy system.

You take a litter of wolf cubs and their mom, confine the mom so she can wean the cubs, and then remove her from the picture. Don't handle or confine them, but supply them with food and protect them without being seen to they can survive. They will not have been taught anything from the pack. Observe this litter and you will see natural behaviors as far as which pups are NATURALLY dominant.

Heck, observe any litter of puppies.. yes DOGS.. and you will see the same freaking thing.

My head really really hurts. I'm going to bed. Sorry for yelling, all. I got a bit carried away. Short fuse when sick.

Jennifer Marshall,
That was one of the best succint yet very clear explanations of wolf pack structure and behavior I have read..thanks!!

I think there is a distinction that can be made between herd type animals like cattle, wildabeast, elk etc and higher order type social animals such as Elephants, Dolphins, Dogs, Wolves, and Humans.

There is a difference between living together in large groups because safety equals numbers and living in social, cooperative, Dynamic family or pack type groups.

Lions are a whole other issue all together being felines LOL!

Jennifer, thanks

As far as certain species are concerned, such as wildebeasts and elk and herd animals where numbers mean strength - there is still a definite structure of rank in place though it can be spread out thinner and there are seperate herds within the herds such as with wildebeast. Elk, there are bachelor herds, and there are regular herds. Their structure is very similar to horses, same with deer.

The main difference is prey animals in comparrison to predator animals. Predators have a much stronger and tigher structure because aggression is in their very nature, else they would never make a kill and starve to death. With that said prey animals such as cape buffalo or wild hogs/wild boar are naturally aggressive animals.

When looking at big cats, there is heirachy even with the solitary cats. Where there is communication, there is structure. Males fight males to establish dominance and territory, females fight females to establish dominance and territory. Males and females rarely tangle and their territories often overlap. In the case of lions, the male or males are the boss, the females have varying rank below the males and as with a wolf pack their are specialists and babysitters, etc.

Any type of animal that lives in a group, a social animal, adheres to a structure of some sort that has to do with dominance and heirarchy, though some are not as stable and others not as strict in their patterns.

I also would like to ad, not in direct response to you though Jennifer.. that as far as animals needing to learn how structure works, that pack structure and rank is not inborn.. if that were true, then who taught the very first of every animal how it had to act?

Also, a lot of people mistake the word dominance as some sort of synonym for aggression. A dominant dog may never show aggression and still be dominant - I know a lot of labs, goldens, boxers and other "soft breeds" that are this way. A dog that is aggressive may not be dominant, a dog that is dominant may not be aggressive, there are more factors than just rank involved here. The nerves, sharpness, courage, handling, and experiences of the dog also help to determine how it will act and react from situation to situation. An owner that never challenges the dog and from day one just always gives it what it wants may never have it's dog so much as growl at them, but the dog can still be dominant.