Catherine,

How can you say the dog wasn't trained in prey when you don't know what prey training is? Prey has to do with body position and the way the dog goes after the aggitator. Your dog could have been completely trained in prey and you wouldn't even know it. You have to understand the principles to tell how the dog was trained. Prey work can look and soud great, some dogs never leave it, but it is still prey.

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My goodness, do different breeds really have different styles? I don't want to get into this but many of your comments and others I find quite ridiculous.

No, I find your statements beyond ridiculous, and I find you personally obnoxious. You are an amatuer wanna be know it all. You have no experience, and know not of what you talk about. You are repeating someone else's theories, with no personal experience to back it up. You can't even explain your ideas clearly, which indicates a lack of real understanding of that which you purport to know.

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Sleeves were only used to present a target. This doesn't mean unprotected bites were taken, just that sleeves weren't used.

That says it all. Sleeves were used, but they weren't used. Need I say more?

You are making misleading and contradictory statements, omitting pertinent information, and broad generalizations. People only respond to what you write. When you do these things and people respond to the information you give, then they are not idiots for not being able to read your mind. You are not communicating clearly. If you can't even communicate clearly with people, then you must not be a very good communicator with your dogs! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I think Catherine is out to lunch. It is clear that she is confused about alot of things, I do not believe dog training being the primary thing.
It is a shame that other people that come to this board and do not know much, might consider her advice and methods.

I think Catherine is out to lunch. It is clear that she is confused about alot of things, I do not believe dog training being the primary thing.
It is a shame that other people that come to this board and do not know much, might consider her advice and methods.

You know, I feel badly. I think that there is room for different opinions on how best to work with one's dog. Dog training is a very passionate subject for most who are involved in it.

I think that what irks me most isn't that some people have different ideas, and ask questions, and feel that there is a better way. That's wonderful, really. What irks me is that this one particular person seems to take on this role of being the Lone Warrior for the Ultimate Dog Training Method, when this person is not knowledgeable or experienced enough to even be able to explain clearly what this method is!!!

The dog-handler bond is special, and for me, when my dogs look to me for direction, when I see in their eyes that they want to please me and work with me, not for a treat or a toy, or out of fear of correction, but out of a desire to work with me, that is the most rewarding feeling, and the reason that I have them in my life. But, dogs can be extremely self-centered animals, and sometimes it takes a long time and a lot of hard work to get to that place where they want to work with you for the sake of it, rather than their own self gratification. And frankly, not all dogs and handlers ever get to that place with one another. So I guess I do agree with Catherine on a lot of levels, I just have to ask "Who the hell do you think you ARE?????" when she comes here and criticizes everyone, with no ability to explain clearly where she is coming from. Instead she says things like "It's hard to explain", or "You wouldn't believe me", or "You wouldn't understand".

Catherine, you've got a long way to go before you can go around correcting everyone's training mistakes and misperceptions and ideas. Work on yourself first and foremost. When people see your success, you won't have to cut down other people, they will come to you for your perspective and you won't have to force it upon others.

I'm speaking from the heart now, and not out of anger.

Not a badly worded insult.

You don't know my experience just as I don't know yours.

I see many sincere questions avoided (I am not speaking of mine here) and instead personal attacks made, and condescending and arrogant remarks. I don't understand the defensiveness or avoidance. Yet many feel they are justified in making them. In some cases my questions are met that way and sometimes its deserved. Sometimes not. For other people's posts, that kind of almighty, all-knowing attitude is not deserved nor is it called for.

Do I really have to spell out things like there are other types of bite equipment that can be used such as bite suits for one? Or that when I say I have a PPD that it is trained? Or that I don't want someone taking unprotected bites?

I am not saying sport methods are wrong for sport - I think thats where it should begin and end. I also have no doubt that everyone on this board thinks what they're doing is right for their dogs.

If my dogs are self-centered, its my deficiency as a handler. I find dogs to be remarkably not self-centered. Its we humans that are.

Catherine,

You know my experience, you won't state yours. You say you know another method to train, but can't describe it. You hold yourself up as an expert, but are afraid to state how many (if any dogs) you have trained. You complain about condesending and arrogant remarks and then make them. So say you don't understand the avoidence, yet you avoid every question you are asked. Maybe you could explain why you are so defensive and avoidant?

You do say sport methods are wrong, and then explain that you don't know what they are. If you know so much then why are you here. You run down every point about training made and explain that you have no idea how it is done.... and you call us arrogant? If you know it all please try to explain... If you know nothing, like you have said, then sit down... shut up... and learn something!!!! Or just shut up and let the adults talk about real training issues and stop trying to mislead people that are here to learn something. It has grown beyond tiresome... grow up, learn something or go away!!!!!

It wasn't an insult. It was advice from the heart.

Richard, you can't force someone to learn anything they don't want to learn. Catherine has swallowed someone else's training philosophy hook, line, and sinker. She's already made up her mind, and only comes here because she thinks it's somehow her duty to make us all think and question, as if we aren't capable of doing so on our own. There is no use in even responding to her, as her questions are not designed for her to learn anything, but rather, to spark debate of the kind that we have seen so much of, all started by her "questions".

Not an insult, Catherine, the truth, you know it, too.

J Parker,

My concern is that people are going to believe the load she is putting out. Good reliable trainers can agree to disagree. Someone following what Catherine suggests will screw up dogs badly, and then wonder what the problem is. It is like a lot of things, it sounds so reasonable... it's just wrong.

You're not capable of thinking on your own? I don't know why you would think I even thought that. I question training methods or ideas, not that you can't think. Wow!

Guess I really should leave the discussion to the adults.

Okay Richard, been around dogs all my life - and haven't owned all that many. Have attended Schutzhund competitions and training but never wanted to train my dogs for it after seeing the dogs and how they're trained (don't think I need to go into details here). I haven't been in a while but will go again when I get the chance. I've worked with friends and their dogs - not as a trainer but as all of us trying to learn. We've tried different approaches. Some I liked, some I didn't. Animal behavior is a hobby of mine but I don't have a degree in it. I haven't written any books or published any articles. Yes, I lose to many people in the contest of credentials...