Catherine:
I have never trained a PPD before my male will be my first. I come here mostly to read and learn. Some of the current posts I have read prompt me to ask you a couple of questions. PLEASE don't take my questions the wrong way and if you would prefer not to answer no problem.
You said you have one PPD that you got already trained (I asume by a profesional) trainer in this feild. Why not find out who trained this one and go there for training on your new dog. You seem to like the way your first dog was trained. The fact that you are training a second dog does prompt me to ask if maybe there are some things about the first that you don't like.
The fact that you have one trained dog and are working on a second is where my next question comes from.
Was the first dog because of a threat or atack to you or did you get him/her to prevent any possible threat or attack. Is your traing a second dog for the same reason. I ask because some people like the idea of having a PPD just in case. It makes them feel more secure and more in control while others have a very real need for personal protection. I unfortunatly fall into the 2nd group. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Richard, I understand your concern. I'm not sure the approach in question *is* totally wrong, it's just that it's not well-defined so it would be easy to screw up and do it wrong, without some real guidance. I guess I feel if folks are going to try any training approach, it should be done under the guidance of someone who knows what they are doing rather than advice off the internet. It's my understanding that this board is not an online training center, but rather, a place for trainers and hobbyists to discuss dog related issues. If someone wants to come here and try to use that information in some misguided attempt at getting free training advice, then there is no way you or I can prevent that.

Anyway, I can speak for myself that I am always learning and always asking myself if there is a better way. I've failed miserably, and I've had some exciting successes. I don't like to fail, but I also would not have had the successes if I hadn't been open to learning and growing as a trainer, rather than being stuck in one way of thinking and not even open to hearing what others have to say, whether I agree with them or not.

Tamar,

Yes, my PPD was trained by a professional trainer. Unfortunately, this trainer is nowhere close to where I live or I would most definitely be going there to train my pup.

I'm sorry about your situation. In the past I certainly could have used a PPD. The neighborhood I live in isn't the safest. I've had a couple of bombs go off within a mile of where I live - one was a block and a half away - murder, and theft. I'd like to have my pup trained also because two is an army.

Catherine: While I feel fortunate to live in an area that is free of that level of violance we do have our problems. I guess that I am speaking as someone who has been on the recieving end of an attack. When someone either a stranger or someone you know grabs you with the intent to do harm for whatever reason it is sudden and mind altering. Even people trained to handle such an attack are usally stunned. In most cases the attack is so fast and hard so as to put you down and eliminate as much fight as possible. If you have a weapon such as a PPD it would be hoped that the animal is trained to such a level that it can act without immedeat direction from its handler. I hope that the second dog you are training turns out to be everything you hope it will be. I guess what I'm trying to say is the only way you will ever find out for sure is if it happens to you. The best alturnitive is to do everything you can to put this animal to the test. I pray you never have to go through something like this but whats more I pray you are right about your current training beliefs and methods. Your very life could depend on it one day.
On another note sounds like you need to move to a quieter neighborhood. Ha Ha. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

J Parker,

I have no problem with people seeking free advise, I have done it and recieved helpful answers. The problem I have is when someone has never trained a dog for protection, has only watched some dogs trained for one protection sport, and then condems the training methods for dogs that they have never seen. From the descriptions I am hearing Catherine has never seen an adequately trained dog. Every dog she talks about I would never consider a finished dog. Further if she can't find a trainer to work with I question how long training would hold on the dog she bought trained. I have seen the training go way down hill on too many dogs that aren't worked. It may be holding, but how would you know.

If you are going to come on here and explain that Kevin, Paul, Lou, Donn, Joy, Renee, and several others that I am blocking on don't know what they are doing having never trained a dog I am going to have a problem with that. The idea here is to provide for an exchange of ideas among trainers in the field of protection dogs. Help can flow well between different dog sports. If you are going to dispense advice or explain that long standing trainers don't know what they are doing when you have never trained a dog? Please, and then to call the rest of us arrogant because we ask her to back it up!!! If you have never trained a dog how do question tecniques you don't understand? As for me, I have trained and maintained 4 of my own dogs and worked with hundreds... someone that has NEVER TRAINED A DOG is going to tell me I don't know how it should be done? Mt current protection dog is a Therapy dog, she is advocating that no one should touch the dog... and that won't make the dog suspicious of people. I have seen that happen with so many dogs. Some of them so screwed up that they have to be put down, and this is the "advise" dispensed? This is how dangerous dogs are created, I have seen it happen to many times, and it will create an unreliable dog.

I don't mind helping. I have friends from all over the country contacting me for help, and in most cases I tell them the same thing, find a competent trainer to work with. In many cases I can find someone for them to work with. I have tried to help and we get back to the same point. Arguing about using a sleeve versus a bite suit? It doesn't matter it gets you the same place, but you have to train some dogs to find that out.

"I've worked with friends and their dogs - not as a trainer but as all of us trying to learn. We've tried different approaches. Some I liked, some I didn't. " Catherine

If you have never even worked with anybody that can do it right I can see how you might get the wrong idea. But don't tell the people that do it right that they aren't doing it right because you don't know what right is. And I'm arrogant!!!!

Sucked in once again.

Catherine:

I have NEVER once heard anyone train a dog in PP or PS by titling them in SchH. I also have NEVER heard anyone claim that there dog was “real” just because there dog was titled. So why you continue to bring up SchH in your remarks is very confusing. SchH, PP and PS dogs training all starts with the same basic bite development training. From there they all go in different directions. One is to score points. Another is to give a handler the time to escape or call for help. And the third is to detain a criminal and to protect a police officer (I am not a PO so I am generalizing). Can a trained SchH dog be a PPD or PSD? Some can. Some cannot. Can a PPD become a PSD? Some can. Some cannot. So the next time you bring up how advanced SchH training has nothing to do with PP. My response is.. yea go on.

Richard,
I hear you!

Richard,

I believe I stated before that my pup has been around lots of people nearly every day. I can move through a crowd with her safely. She can take accidental bumps and remain calm. I have children pet her any chance I get. She can sit quietly with children running and squealing around her. Etc, etc, etc. She's nearly 9 months old now but I guess she should be put down because she'll eventually be screwed up and dangerous? And my adult, same thing? He's had the same upbringing. I'm not telling you to not let people pet your protection/therapy dog. That is ridiculous. My dogs do not double as therapy dogs, although if someone seems to need the comfort of petting a dog (old or sick) I let them pet my dog (I believe I also mentioned that before). I'm sorry you find it so unbelievable that my dogs aren't dangerous because they don't fit into your experience or formulas for dog training or dog behavior.

Interesting that this thread has stayed open this long.

With everything that's going on right now, I can't believe you guys are still buying into Catherine's silly little head games. You guys all have so much good info/advice and experiences to share, don't burn yourselves out on this. Catherine is clueless, she's never trained a dog, she's got a low drive pet dog and she's stuck on the idea that someone can sprinkle magic dust on it's head and create a PP dog.
Share your experiences w/folks who really appreciate it, many do. Don't let yourselves be baited by someone who knows nothing but thinks she knows everything. You know what they say about casting pearls and all.