You crack me up CJ

Good points well put, I consider myself ticked off and will return to my corner from whence I came

The only reason I do the discovery dog stands at Crufts and Earls Court in London has nothing to do with me being accepting of the dog show scene infact the absolute opposite.When I first applied to join the UK breed club I was turned down (the first and only person to have that happen to them) because I was so outspoken about the way exhibitors kept their dogs,no being regularly exercised poorly socialised and very much isolated to the world outside of a show ring.Then when people began to see my meos living harmoniously together (without any other visitors) it wasn't long before I was being asked to join the club some years later.In order to be on the breed stand you have to be a breed club member they are the rules.So I joined the club so I could do the discovery dog stand and enable me to present a different side of owning this breed to normal no show people as they were unlikely to see how the breed could be a good family pet from the hardcore showers and breeders as they just have thier dogs as normal household family pets.So in essence I decided to curb my outspokeness and kind of fight from within the ranks and present my views on owning this breed talking about castrating the males speying the bitches temperment etc and not from a show persons view from someone that lives with their dogs in the house and not a kenneled dog with a sad isolated existance.When assuming that the KC representative had no knowledge of the breed,normally that would be a correct assumption however in this case it was someone that was most familiar with the breed as Tracey will confirm the neapolitan is one of about a dozen high profile breeds ,quite rightly,that have been targeted by the UK kennel Club with regard to their health issues and the functionality of the dogs in the ring and the breed is subject to vet checks for best of breed winners by KC vets and one of the compliments I was given was about the functional look of my dogs which as I explained is not to do with their breeding but their nurture in that they are regularly exercised. So I was actually complimented by someone who was very much familiar with the breed and was likely the cause of my particular breeds' stand receiving extra scrutiny but not being fro the UK you wouldn't know this and which is why the coment in the article says "not enough to sway the judges" as this was a bad day for the neos being shown at Crufts in terms of criticism for the KC judges and reps who have become very knowledgeable about this breed and several others they have targeted and to receive some positive input from the KC was welcome but definately not expected from any neo owner and I am glad that without being outspoken I was able to show a different side to the many bad ones and of course explain I didnt own skinny neos lol.That being said exercise alone will not solve some of the neo health problems but it does give the the dogs a happy life which is what is important to me,if my dogs are happy I am too

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But when heads keeping banging up against a wall and there's no sign of making a dent, just more concrete getting poured, yeah it's time to start painting that wall with graffiti.

Thats good CJ. I may steal that sometime, or at least obscurely reference it.

 Quote: tracey holden

You crack me up CJ

Good points well put, I consider myself ticked off and will return to my corner from whence I came

You know that that corner is absolutely no place for you.

Your British take on the English language has me in stitches all the time as well.

And you know I adore you. Your perspective is just as important as anyone else's so please don't think you've been "ticked off" in any manner, whatsoever.

I see your points and you chose to see mine. Somewhere in there we'll form better opinions because of it.

And see, as rational, forward thinking, responsible, "communicating" adults we can agree and disagree and discuss and learn and move on.

Constructive feedback is not a bad thing. It's the way some folks choose to take it, or not, that sends up those barriers and turns it into conflict.

 Quote: steve strom

Thats good CJ. I may steal that sometime, or at least obscurely reference it.

Hee hee, it was your colorful variation of Connie's quoted "Mobile Dog Park" that sparked that so by all means, it's yours to use and abuse as you please.

That is of course assuming you're going to have the opportunity. I mean how many dog show loving/hating, bumbling scientist, can’t see the forest for the trees, 4 dog Neo Mastiff show, "Moowbyyyyel doggiepark" owners do we have running thru here.

Andrew, you're not hearing anything that's being said anyway and I for one could care less about your political fight with the show dog folks so that comment is all in fun, please don't take it too personally.

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You know that that corner is absolutely no place for you.

Your British take on the English language has me in stitches all the time as well.

And you know I adore you. Your perspective is just as important as anyone else's so please don't think you've been "ticked off" in any manner, whatsoever.

I see your points and you chose to see mine. Somewhere in there we'll form better opinions because of it.

And see, as rational, forward thinking, responsible, "communicating" adults we can agree and disagree and discuss and learn and move on.

Constructive feedback is not a bad thing. It's the way some folks choose to take it, or not, that sends up those barriers and turns it into conflict.

Well, I don't know CJ, I wept copiously into my pillow last night after the trauma, but I am hopeful with therapy,I may stop rocking and drooling by Christmas

I haven't been to Crufts for yonks, after I stopped going to work the trade stand, I went primarily to see the Pointers breeders, who had sibs there competing, I always went to Discover Dogs, because when the kids were young, they loved seeing all the breeds we had talked about but never seen.

I always had mixed feelings about all those people and their kids patting and squealing around the dogs, but the dogs seemed fairly relaxed about it, though some engaged more willingly than others, so as I say, mixed feelings, and because of the politics surrounding the Kennel Club, and some truly reprehensible breeding practices, I don't go to Crufts, support the Kennel Club, or even read 'Dogs Today' anymore.

Within my own breed of the Boerboels, there has been a lot of work around the promotion of fit-for-purpose, but also temperament, especially regarding the whole deed not breed debate, but generally, the various registries and individual clubs hold appraisals or fun days, where everyone is expected to keep the dogs under control and on leads at all times, with the odd exception, these events are really successful and run professionally, however, I am not aware of any other situation where around 20 Boerboels are ever in one place outside controlled conditions.

What, if anything, have you read here and thought 'Yeah, I might re-think that'?? I know I have totally had to reconsider a lot of the things I took for granted with the virtually bomb proof Pointers after joining this board

 Quote: tracey holden

Well, I don't know CJ, I wept copiously into my pillow last night after the trauma, but I am hopeful with therapy,I may stop rocking and drooling by Christmas

Too funny. Well okay, take the "rational" out of that adult piece.

And three months isn’t that long. Rocking can be fun. Just don't speed up or stop too suddenly. Would hate to see that drool flinging all over the walls.


And yeah, those dog shows are quite the venue in themselves. As I said, not a life I would want for any dog but I guess they probably serve some kind of purpose. The human ego is about the only thing I can think of.

The working venues are impressive to me. Not only are dogs trained and judged largely on that handler control, they're working and having fun, doing what they were bred to do.

Dog zoos would a better name for these shows. And I get the whole beauty pageant aspect of it but they're lacking the talent and intelligence pieces.

But who am I to judge what these folks do. I don't patronize zoo's or circuses and while I do watch the Westminster Dog Show, simply because it's on TV, you would never find me at one of these Dog Shows either.

I admit I don't know about dog shows in England, but I do know about dog shows over here. I have two AKC champions laying on the deck with me right now.

We went to our first shows in 1993 and started showing in 1994. We've belonged to 3 different Rottweiler clubs in the past and we've made friends in different breeds during that time. For every dog that has no life beyond the kennel, there are at least 100 that are ordinary family dogs, dogs that are doing obedience,agility,rally, everything anyone does with their dogs.

Breed clubs and breeders for the most part are very involved in trying to eliminate whatever health problems have been bred into dogs. Are there some that arent? Sure. People are going to sometimes do the wrong thing. In any venue or breed there's going to be the outside goofball that knows better then anyone else and the're going to breed whatever they happen to own because they're so wonderful. Its the same kennel blindness anyone can have, whether they show their dogs or just try to show them off.

And Tracey, this is all completely irrelevant to the thread. One person trying to handle 800lbs of giant breed dogs in public this way is just as irresponsible as someone handing the leash of one of them to a 6yr old. All that dedication to being the savior of the breed, right down the crapper when somebody gets bit.

I don't know how to say this nicely, so I'm just saying it.

The major point in the responses here has been what Steve refers to in his last paragraph above.

The dog show stuff has been tossed into the mix here by the O.P. when he was asked this:

 Quote: steve strom

One of the best pieces of advice I was ever given, and I keep it in the back of my mind with everything I'm ever training, is "What are you going to do if that doesnt work?" Whats your plan Andrew? Suddenly, one of those Bulldogs isnt so friendly or submissive and theres a fight. What now Andrew?

People get involved, 2 or 3 of your dogs and mixed in, now what? And don't try to say that could never happen Andrew. Something can always happen with dogs no matter how much attention you're paying to how they're wagging their tails. What are you going to do?

Too many giant breed dogs for you to safely handle the way you are, at one time. Period.

Hi Steve

I digressed, my apologies.

The pros and cons of dog shows aside, do you believe there are no circumstances where large breed dogs are a not a ticking bomb in a pack out in public?

Are there really no dogs so well trained that they can’t ignore distractions such as other badly behaved dogs, or thoughtless adults encouraging small children to approach strange dogs?

I know making comparisons to CM are possibly redundant, the man is a genius, and probably part dog, but surely his point is that a balanced pack can be taken anywhere, I certainly don’t have the skills to confidently take my 4 to busy areas on public transport, but that said, when Harry was still with us, my kids and me took him and the other 2 Boerboels to a Norfolk dog day fund raiser for injured servicemen, and it was a totally relaxed and successful day, they were a lot younger then, and less prone to reaction, and I certainly wouldn't attempt it now, but there were over a hundred people there with several hundred dogs of all sizes, but on my life, I didn't see a single snarl, lunge, bark or hackle raised.

I don’t know Andrew or his dogs, none of us on the board do, but isn't’t it at all possible that he does have control over his Neo’s, and that they are calm and perfectly well behaved in an environment that other dogs may be less so, when placed in similar surroundings?

I just think it is a tad unfair to damn the man for his account of his dogs and their temperaments, simply because of his activities with them, that the majority feel is, and I am quoting here, arrogant.

I apologize sincerely if this flies in the face of general consensus, i.e. he is an accident waiting to happen, and I would never suggest such activities are suitable as the norm, but I respectfully ask for the right to reply on this.

I promise absolutely I am not trying to be argumentative for the sake of it, but I am genuinely curious as to whether or not this is something that can be something achieved with a pack of dogs, given the right training and conditioning.