Ana,
i actually replied to your message at 5am. sent it on my BB but apparently it didnt post.
here it is:

"Ana,
this has been the most clear and beneficial post I ve read so far. Thank u so much for taking ur time to write it all down. It s 5am here and I couldn't sleep trying to plan out how I wanted to solve this.ur post put everthing in perspective and m gonna carry it with me as a guide to talking to the vets. There is no way we should get to the point of making u eat ur hat
Thank u so much again.
Let's hope this works.
I was sleepless and thinking so hard. My cell vibrated and it s as if u simply answered me: "Stop overthinking. Here s the solution. Now chillax and go to bed"
Goodnight "

i stayed up till 6. wrote everything down. planned what m gonna do. took karly out, prepared a stool sample.
now m watching nip/tuck and waiting for the vet to open.

extra things i m concerned about:
- karly may have eaten his stool at kennel since he pooed 5times yesterday and was only pooing "only twice/day" at the kennel.
- not starting scourban since he took it for a week and i barely saw any change
- donno if i should check for CBC and chem now with meds in his system

here s the plan:
1. CBC, chem,
2. stool sample (i know bacteria should be fine now, checking for parasites too - kennel and eating shit.
3. pancreatic enzyme dificiency (terrified)
ask about rectal & abdominal palpation (for tumor or polyp
ask about endoscopic biopsy (and price )
ask about cancer :'(
and what other tests we might have to look at.

questions:
- IV support? how? when? cost? frequence?
- switching to bland diet so that Royal canin (or another kibble) wouldnt lead us to believe things are going well?
- if dolthene should be given (it s the ONLY med that helped us so far)
- another vet wanted to give scourban. if there s a test we could take before giving him meds so we know what and WHY we are giving him before we overload his tiny system.

Ana,
again, thanks sooo much for your message. i read it over and over and over again and wrote everything down according to his history to clear out possibilities.
it helped me clear my head and actually empowered me. i know exactly what m looking and the steps m gonna take.

 Quote: michel karsouny

- karly may have eaten his stool at kennel since he pooed 5times yesterday and was only pooing "only twice/day" at the kennel.

He hasn't ingested anything that hasn't been in there before. Don't worry.

 Quote: michel karsouny

- not starting scourban since he took it for a week and i barely saw any change

Ask your vet, maybe get several vets involved. It might be touchy, try to find (your vet's) old buddies etc, you know...

 Quote: michel karsouny

- donno if i should check for CBC and chem now with meds in his system

your vet should be able to explain to you any deviations caused by the meds he prescribed. The sooner you do the basic tests the better.

 Quote: michel karsouny

here s the plan:
1. CBC, chem,

+electrolytes. It's usually part of the package here.

 Quote: michel karsouny

2. stool sample (i know bacteria should be fine now, checking for parasites too - kennel and eating shit.

According to my vet, check at least twice. Not twice in a row but over several days at least, if the case is urgent.

 Quote: michel karsouny

3. pancreatic enzyme dificiency (terrified)

Nah, don't worry now. Treatable.

 Quote: michel karsouny

ask about rectal & abdominal palpation (for tumor or polyp
ask about endoscopic biopsy (and price )
ask about cancer :'(
and what other tests we might have to look at.

Too young for cancer, don't worry about biopsy, ask for the estimate, it might not come to that. Or it might be relatively cheap. I always ask for estimates for every option available. Just in case.

 Quote: michel karsouny

questions:
- IV support? how? when? cost? frequence?

You could probably do it yourself. I did IV drip, not a big deal. A technician would have to go over details with you. The vet would tell you how often and the dosage. At this point malnourishment would be something to look out for. There is no blood, lethargy or vomiting - very good! If Karly gets proper nourishment, you get more time to figure out what's wrong AND it will keep him growing.

 Quote: michel karsouny

- switching to bland diet so that Royal canin (or another kibble) wouldnt lead us to believe things are going well?
- if dolthene should be given (it s the ONLY med that helped us so far)
- another vet wanted to give scourban. if there s a test we could take before giving him meds so we know what and WHY we are giving him before we overload his tiny system.

Ask somebody who knows better. A vet. Ask 1) why this particular treatment; 2) what to expect; 3) what's the best and worst case scenario; 4) how soon to expect the improvement; 5) what to look for in case it does not work.

Make sure he does not lose any more weight. Do IV if you have to.

Please, anybody, any comments?

Michel, it might be nothing, don't worry yourself sick. Think, plan, adjust.

Labs here haven't heard of trypsin like immunoreactivity!! We re calling lab after lab at the vet's. RIDICULOUS!!!

Try the basic tests first. Your labs might know a test under a different name, fficial&client=firefox-a >google it.

Ana is giving you great advice IMO.
One thing though -- the farmers I used to work for would tell me the main value of having a veterinarian was that the sick animal became the vet's problem and responsibility to treat. So, the burden of healing was on me, as their vet, and they could stop worrying and wondering if they were doing the right thing.
Your vet sounds like a good guy. Tell him his Rx is not cutting it. See what he has to offer. Pancreatic enzymes sprinkled on the food sure couldn't hurt.
I personally don't think an IV is necessary unless his stools are fluid.

ok. EPI doesnt exist in lebanon apparently. even in the biggest most respectful labs.

Guys, this is going to be a different post.
i went up to the kennel and took Karly there. Kennel saw him and we got his bro out to compare. bro s bigger but not like before. his size caught up with karly's. not THAT fat as he was before.

kennel s like "pupps get fat and skinny, poo a lot or a little. dont usually have hard stools. it all depends on how much protein is in the diet in all cases." he thinks there should be no such thing as "loose stools" as long as it s not watery. he feeds raw and RC.

apparently he s had LOTS of skinny dogs that fill up starting at 8months or so. he thinks m the most "neurotic and paranoid" client he s had and thinks m destroying myself and pple around me
in his opinion, as long as puppies are playing and have good fur, he s fine no matter how fat or skinny.
he s against all vets in lebanon and says they dont have specialties but treat all dogs in a generic bookish way. and believes that when one does too much research and relies only on generic facts without considering individual cases, diagnostics usually - every pup has different metabolism and rate of growth and body type...like us i guess.

he says that being a breeder makes you LOOK and experience what healthy/non healthy mean. he NEVER gives antibiotics and just lets dogs heal on their own by altering their diets. he deworms them and that s it when he needs to.

he asked me to keep Karly there for 10days and that s what i did. i dont want to research anything anymore. i just want to have trust in someone and in that everything will be alright.
whatever happened to trust and since when have we become that skeptical about everything and everyone?

one of the vets told me today that m too much of a perfectionist and that "my life is gonna be very hard if i dont trust pple and seek to figure out everything on my own" ... that didnt trigger a red light till i got to the kennel.

guys, i do this all the time. i zero in on whatever i m focusing on. always try to take matters into my own hands and resolve problems myself (when maybe sometimes there s not even a problem). maybe that s something we should all learn from...

i m gonna chillax a bit. they call it "living aal barakeh" here, which means "in God's blessing", the whole "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" bit ... i ve always been more a scientific and believe in cause/consequence.

m gonna let go now. for just a bit. try to have some faith instead.
i ll update you of course.

thank you so much for everything. you re the best.
let s see how trust and faith work out. please help me out here and remind me of my commitment when i post something up at 4am :P

see you in the forum. i ll always be around. m gonna focus on training threads to keep my mind off diarrhea

You don't know how happy that last post makes me.

Sometimes there are diarrhea post that have obvious fixes, and internet diagnosis is not a big deal.

Then there are more complicated cases like yours where it can get a little more nerve wracking. On top of that, there were people PHYSICALLY THERE that were having conflicting feelings about the severity of the "diarrhea".

With something like this, especially over the internet, it would be extremely careless to tell you not to worry about something. Just the same as advising you on gobs of test and more poking and prodding of this puppy.

I'm probably getting very redundant, but I think you need to default to the people that ARE THERE in this case. Which you obviously have done.:smile:

This break will be good for you and the puppy. And when you get the puppy back, PLAY with it. Show it all the world. Start practicing with marker training. You'll be so freakin' happy you did.

 Quote: michael_wise

You don't know how happy that last post makes me.

Sometimes there are diarrhea post that have obvious fixes, and internet diagnosis is not a big deal.

Then there are more complicated cases like yours where it can get a little more nerve wracking. On top of that, there were people PHYSICALLY THERE that were having conflicting feelings about the severity of the "diarrhea".

Thank you so much for phrasing this so well, Michael. I know that folks were dropping off this thread, distressed about it.

Michel, I could never say this better than Michael did:
This break will be good for you and the puppy. And when you get the puppy back, PLAY with it. Show it all the world. Start practicing with marker training. You'll be so freakin' happy you did.

This board is loaded with experienced and knowledgeable folks, but there is a point, passed long ago (IMO, anyway), where the discussion online would have been much better to be a client-vet discussion.

Most impressive of all, Michel, is your openness to this self-awareness: i do this all the time. i zero in on whatever i m focusing on. always try to take matters into my own hands and resolve problems myself (when maybe sometimes there s not even a problem).

If you become your vet's partner rather than his adversary, you are going to de-stress your life considerably (and by direct extension, your pup's life).

Please accept this in the non-judgmental spirit with which it's offered. I know that you will watch the pup's health, and ask questions of the vet, and read up on healthcare, but I feel sure that you can do all this now without frantic and constant doubt about everything.


This pup's going to have a whole big "family" of 'net relatives watching him blossom.

guys thanks so much for replying still. after ALL OF THIS. tit definitely logical to get distressed after F&^@!(&* 16 pages
and thanks for the kind words.

1st time today actually that the vet and i actually see eye to eye and sit and discuss all the possibilities (that ana very amazingly organized

next it s all about play. this pup is gonna EXCEL with all the marker training m gonna lay on his ass! i m already watching Basic Obediance (actually for the second time now)

m glad to be part of this family, although i got in with the most annoying thread ever! :P i hope ill compensate enough in the next ones to come and posts.

all the best,
m

Not annoying at all. And I feel sure that Ana and Betty and others helped you to organize your thoughts and questions, which is invaluable.

"next it s all about play. this pup is gonna EXCEL with all the marker training m gonna lay on his ass! i m already watching Basic Obediance (actually for the second time now)"

Relax. Marker training is fun. Have fun and let the pup have fun. Have tiny little upbeat sessions that leave him wishing for more, and don't allow either of you to become frustrated. I promise you that you will be happy about it, and that your bond with the pup will grow stronger every day.


eta
Do you have the first marker video? http://leerburg.com/219.htm





Edited by Connie Sutherland (03/23/2010 04:02 PM)
Edit reason: eta