I just want to make sure you see these things. You're a guy with a good heart who loves dogs, and I want to see you succeed

I like that sentiment and second it

 Quote: andrew harris

http://youtu.be/FLFdHBYdj4M

In this video you see Broxy a 5 year old american bull dog.He came to me as a dog that had never in his 5 years been outside a garden of his owners who were afraid of him and was both dog agressive and human agressive and was due to be put to sleep because his owners had not reared him correctly.I took him in and he was with me for 2 months at the end of which I was able to find him a home as he had stopped being agressive to dogs and humans so much so he lived with another male dog.As much work as I did with him it was mostly the influence of my pack that saved him and rehabilitated him .as he was low down in the pecking order of my dogs he was more strongly influenced by the way they behaved in situations and because he was able to see I clearly controlled his superior pack members I too was able to exact my control over him,again dogs learning from dogs and here is a picture of him visiting with his new mate .

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u165/bosscat69/broxy/Image0223.jpg
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u165/bosscat69/broxy/Image0224.jpg

Duane I totally get your point and well meant concerns.Before I allow any dog to mix offleash with my pack there is always an initial meeting on leash where I cam assess my packs reaction to the new comer and that of the new comer.Perhaps you may be able to enlighten me on the fact that many dogs that display some sort of dominance with their owners or other dogs but when confronted with my pack that dominance does not manifest itself.The bordeaux for example displays many dominant behaviours with her owners perhaps because she is the only dog but when amongs my pack she instantly gave up her dominance . The video with Misty the staffordshire bullterrier you will hear me say that in her owners opinion she is naughty which translates to her being dominant and actually is quite dog agressive and when I posted the video here I was told I was being unfair to the staffordshire bull terrier as she was clearly stressed by the experience which yes she is but is that the fault of the dog ,the dogs' owners or me? In my opinion the dog was stressed because she was nit used to a situation where she would normally choose to adopt a stratergy of fight flight or avoidance and was being made to submit to an uncomfortable situation for her tho as you can see from the demena of my pack that was definately not the case and so in my opinion did not point to an obedience issue but one of the the dog being mentally unstable.

http://youtu.be/nO2M0M-77ic

and so if I repeated the same exercise several times I am sure on the 4th or 5th time of doing the same thing you would see the staffordshire bull terrier being alot more comfortable with the situation.

On page 6 of this topic you will see the post I have quoted here regarding the american bull dog.I think you will agree a dog exhibiting agression to not just other dogs but humans is a dog at the highest level of dominance .I dont have any video fottage of his rehabilitation as this was one dog that I needed full focus for and tho he was able to mix with my pack under my supervision only for the first month he definately was a challenge through no fault of his own but rather another case of someone buying a high powered breed for status and egoe and creating a ticking time bomb .He turned out to be an awsome dog and definately missed him when I found an experienced home for him. Below is a video of him when he came back to me while his owners were on holiday

http://youtu.be/FLFdHBYdj4M

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u165/bosscat69/broxy/Image0224.jpg

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u165/bosscat69/broxy/Image0223.jpg

and as you can see he was rehomed with another male dog and still remains a well behaved chap he has become the dog he was meant to be.

Just to show the doubters that I did have him before he was rehomed I have found some pictures taken when I first got him and I think it is plain to see his condition is alot poorer than he is in the video.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u165/bosscat69/broxy/broxy%202010/Image0157aaaaaaaaaa_zps45001c20.jpg

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u165/bosscat69/broxy/broxy%202010/Image0172aaaaaaaaaaaaaa_zps59128637.jpg

Another example of having a dominant dog come visit was when the uk club breed secretary bought her intact male neo.For this I met her and the dog away from my home taking only my young female as she is the most reactive in my pack.The meeting was on leash at first followed by a playful off leash experience in a field .We then arrived at my home and I took control of the introducing of the male neo by first bringing out my alpha female only to meet him and watched their interaction and then one by one introduced the other 3 pack members and eventually the five neos interacted with no problems and the only intervention required was to intervene so as not to allow their play amongst each other to become too intense.Additionally I think that tho a dog may exhibit dominance with their owner when I bring them into my pack and home I am able to correct any slight signs of dominance before they enter the grounds of my property.I am not sure if IU am correct but I have found that most dogs I meet sense the strong family pack bond amongst my dogs and this in some way influences their behaviour even if they are normally of a dominant disposition am not sure why this is the case but this is my experience.The thing I have to instill into my dogs is tolerence of fearful dogs which in some ways are potentially more likely to cause a problem in terms of fear biting and that is something my dogs are quite used to now and will ignore a dogs that growl snap or snarl from a fearful perspective as you can see as they all ignore the onleash dog in the video below and only interact with the playful offleash dog and tho not easy to see in the video the on leash dog snapped at at least 2 of my dogs who simply accepted it was the dogs way of saying leave me alone from a fearful point which I explained to the owner that always had to keep the dog onleash and only allow the other to run around that his dog was actually agressive but just scared and thats why even when an dog on leash came too close he would snap at them.

http://youtu.be/yWObAwJo_fU

C J says "And on these walks, much like the cat at the end of a driveway, it's hard to predict when these situations are going to present themselves or know when to start filming. (Well I guess that cat would have been pretty easy just sitting there)."

Careful CJ yiu nearly gave me a compliment lol.

http://youtu.be/5cgd7cdHXY4

So I put a video of my 4 dogs being held in one hand ,all leashes slack, and filming with the other hand I then show a cat across a road then cross the road ,leads still slack,walking towards the cat with "800 lbs" of dogs and none of the dogs react and you say

" pretty easy" lol

I think that whilst I accept the level of obedience of my is not close to the standards of dogs of other peoples because I have approached the rearing of them more from a point of conditioning them to be stable from a psychological perspective and not taking too much consideration as regard to their size that whilst some may see possible pitfalls in this approach ,I believe that this approach makes their behaviours more predictable in unpredictable situations.However I do accept that that more obedience as a collective would be benifitial.However when I am walking all 4 together on leash I do have absolute control of them not by giving them commands relating to taught obedience stand point but because of the very close rappour between me and them so when walking them together onleash ,always all in one hand and all leashes slack its like they are not even there if that makes sense lol.If I slow down or stop they do too without being comanded to do so but because they are in sync with me.two or three times a week I take the dogs on a 6 mile walk and the young female carries 9lbs in her back pack for the three miles back.Below is a short video of what I am trying to explain,note no verbal commands.

http://youtu.be/lT7npxin6WA

This is a structured walk where the dogs are not allowed to sniff or relieve themselves as they have done so before they are taken out.I simply plug in my mp3 player and walk.When I return home all 4 dogs follow into the front garden behind me and their leashes taken off and they may relieve themselves.I open my front door and walk inside and all 4 dogs do not as this point walk in behind me .I turn round and then ask each dog seperately to enter into the house.

http://youtu.be/8xHO28Ju41Y

Again the only command given is when I ask each dog to enter the house all the other actions of the dogs are intuitive to the dogs
as part of the conditioning process .When walking the dogs together they are always behind me or at my side.The other day we were confronted by an off leash jack russell that just chrged and barked at the dogs I simply stood still the dogs did not pull towards the little jack russell and the jack russell stopped barking stood still for about 20 seconds then simply quietly walked away.

http://youtu.be/kUtGgRraphc

In my approach size does not matter

"However I do accept that that more obedience as a collective would be benifitial"


Then why do we have these volumes of how you use your pack en masse to make other people's dogs more balanced, less aggressive, whatever.

Every time I think of that complete lack of recall so glaringly apparent in the clips, such as the horse clip, I shudder.


One dog off-leash in public with that level of basic ob is irresponsible. This is what the "mentor" you talk about should be telling you.

QUOTE: "You're a guy with a good heart who loves dogs, and I want to see you succeed" .... So do I, and success starts with obedience and control.

I have realised this issue and identified that the 2 siblimgs are the ones that require the most attention with regards to recall and am working hard on this issue with them individually and the two together and will post videos of the results of their recall training soon.Please realise that when I have all 4 with me in city and town situations they are always kept on leash as many of the videos posted show; it is the "exception rather than the rule" that they are off leash in public most of the excursions with them are on leash.
Whilst I understand your comments on some of the videos such as the one with the horses , as much as there are negatives to the senario the fact that the pack as a collective aproach such situations with a non threatening or fearful state of mind but one of just curiousity influenced the state of mind of the horses in this case had this not been so even dog tolerant horses will react
quite differently if they are not approached correctly by any animal or even person and tho they had not encountered horses before their state of mind kept both them and the horses calm.That apart obviously I accept that a much improved recall needs to be achieved and as I have mentioned this is my main focus at the moment.

A short video of just one dog with me getting my sole attention to further her training.

http://youtu.be/32bnq-e2CJ0

This is only a short clip of an outing of over 4 hours of just me and the the young female out and about and confronting every opportunity I encounter to train her separately from the others

Didn't watch the clip. But "with regards to recall ..... am working hard on this issue with them individually" is good to hear.

 Quote: andrew harris

Careful CJ yiu nearly gave me a compliment lol.

Hey Andrew, read the bold and insert for clarification of what I said:

"And on these walks, much like the cat at the end of a driveway, it's hard to predict when these situations are going to present themselves or know when to start filming. (Well I guess that cat would have been pretty easy (to know when to start filming) just sitting there)."

And yes Andrew, nobody said walking around 800 lbs of mastiff was "easy". I've got close to 400 lbs of dog waiting for dinner right now after a good run.

Nothing in my being would ever possess me to double that.

Wellll, Andrew...
I'm a 5'6" nerdy type of guy. If I were in a barroom being bullied by four huge biker types, I wouldn't be acting dominant/aggressive, either.

ETA: even if the barmaid told me everything was cool, they're just playing.

Edited by Duane Hull (10/11/2012 12:01 AM)
Edit reason: eta

On a serious note; Do the "lessons" that your pack teaches the newcomers translate to better behavior when these dogs go back to their owners? How much value does what you're doing have for the outsiders?