Quote: ian bunbury

andrew , i'd be interested to know what the life of a true , working line , bred for purpose neopolitan mastiff would actually be like .

what would the " work " actually consist of ?

hope this doesn't derail your thread andrew , but when i watch the vids i'm thinking " yeah ? ". i'm impressed by the amount of time you are apparently putting in , but to what end ?

is your goal to demonstrate these particular dogs are capable of these activities , or is your thread intended as a " how to " for neo mastiffs ?

i guess my point is , if these are " working " dogs , i'd like to see what they look like when they are in their element .

http://youtu.be/z5d6gIuCdeQ

This another video of people doing bite work with a neo,as I have very little knowledge of this side of dog training it is difficult for me to evaluate as to whether they are demonstrating responsible or correct methods of this type of training.Perhaps people could enlighten me as to the correctness of this particular video.To me and obviously I could be totally wrong,it looks very chaotic and unstructured.Many neo owners post similar videos on youtube and as I have previously mentioned there are alot of unsuitable owners of this breed and the latter tend to concentrate and gloryfi the ferocity of the breed and likely do not posess the knowledge and expertise required to do this sort of activity with such a large powerful breed as is deminstrated by others on this site,certainly I know for sure I am not and do not know anyone locally that would do this sort of training with this breed even police dog trainers that I know say they are not well suited to this training as a rule because their "off switch" is difficult to train into the breed or may be this is because not many reputable and experienced trainers have done this sort of work with neapolitan mastiffs.

 Quote: Duane Hull

Back-tying is used to evaluate and control drive in biting dogs. It can be used to put a dog straight into defense, but most sport dog trainers have abandoned the practice of using fight-or-flight.

By tying to the fence, you can control distance, and subsequently you can control whether you work the dog in prey drive or in defense. You can determine whether the dog will even work in prey drive. You can avoid putting undue pressure on the dog, but you can also strengthen prey drive through frustration.

Sport dogs must, at some point, learn to work in prey. This is the side that companion dog owners aren't exposed to and seldom understand..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CtA1u-nKB4&list=UUKl6g2JcIjvgmhEM1htTQHg&index=63&feature=plcp

I am aware,and have become even more so since posting on this site,about prey drive in my own dogs.On this video note the last comment posted on this video page and this video is one I posted over 5 years ago.We are all aware that even siblings from the same litter will not be equal in their characteristics,prey drive being one of those.From posting here and discussing things with my mentors in the dog training arena,I have now realised that tho all my dogs are related,the young female has a considerably higher prey drive than any of my other dogs which is why she exhibits the behaviours she does and is apparent in the video with the horses,(from a purely animal point of view horses are seen as "prey") and posters here in response to this video have highlighted her wrong behaviours in this video.The video below is another example of her prey drive level

http://youtu.be/yWObAwJo_fU

Note she is the one that continues engaging in chasing the running(smaller dog) and tho in both videos there is no outward signs of agressivness it does highlight the higher prey dive she posesses .What I do think would be of benefit would be to have her do some activity where she can engage her prey drive seperately from the others perhaps and would really appreciate any ideas about this.I have already mentioned I am no keen on doing any type of bite work with my dogs but perhaps there is something that does involve this that I could do with her .You will notice that in some of the videos she wears a backpack which she can carry 9lbs for over 3 miles and whilst I could perhaps increase the weight she carries I'm not sure this will achieve the goal of controlling her prey drive other than making her more physically tired .

thanks for indulging me andrew .

Bare in mind with my dogs my aim is to make them super social much like dogs trained as therapy dogs.Normally owners aren't happy to allow all and sundry to approach and pet their dogs,where as I have purposely ,with the help of my friend that trains guide dogs for the blind who I have previously mentioned,to be accepting of this type of attention and wouldn't want any of the dogs to be derailed from this type of over accepting behaviour and although neos are considered to be a gaurding breed I never encourage or train them to guard,infact I do the reverse.

Is the field you walked your "pack" in public land?
The cattle were terrified. I'm glad you are not my neighbor!

http://leecharleskelley.com/trainingtips/recallatthedogrun.html

In relation to improving recall I have been taking the dogs to a sports complex where they have cricket nets meant for bowling prctice and used some of the techniques described in the above link.I have also read articles here such as :
http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=32529&page=1#364596

And:http://leerburg.com/search/searchresults.php?terms=recall

Looked at all the articles above.The additional training has resuled in all of the dogs gradually improving in this area however,tho there has been improvement compared to previously,the young female I talk about has not reached the same level of improvement as the others and whilst she is 100% reliable in recall as soon as I add another dog not from my own pack,as I have done with the others,she is less compliant.Any ideas?

Prey drive IS NOT curiosity about another animal (as is the case with the horse, and also in the last video). Prey drive consists of stalk-acquire-kill, and these are the phases that the dog is progressed thru in using prey drive to teach bitework.
If you're dog's prey drive were triggered by the horse, she would have a stalking posture. This is the point at which you would need to call her off, before she got to the "acquire" phase. In a dog with strong prey drive, the "stalk" can come and go in a flash, making it appear that the dog has gone straight to the acquisition phase. Being able to call the dog off or control the dog during it's interaction with the prey is the key to teaching obedience during the bitework.

In the training video that you posted, they are training actual protection work and not sport biting. While prey drive was used to teach the dog how and what to bite, and to get the dog in drive, having several agitators put varying degrees of pressure on the dog triggers some defense. There is nothing blatantly wrong in the video, and this dog should not be any more outwardly aggressive (except to agitation) after this training. Just the fact that he's suited for it means he needs first-rate management, but he's no monster. Do you see the wagging tail throughout the work? This means the pressure is not overwhelming and he's not working solely in defense or aggression.

On another note, I'm still frustrated by your unwillingness to answer direct questions. A lot of us would feel a lot more comfortable about your control if we understood your agenda and knew you had some kind of backup plan.

 Quote: andrew harris

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

 Quote: andrew harris

As far as the comments regarding me having "a mobile dog park" walking all the dogs together bonds them together and creates harmony amongst the pack hence how I am able to have them all sleeping on the same bed together and even eating together without any issues

The thing is, and this is not the first, second, third, or fourth time this has been stressed, you have responsibility to others besides your pack.

Taking a pack you cannot control if something happens into public places is irresponsible. That's my opinion.

You have been asked what your backup plan is, should something happen. There has never been an answer. There really IS no answer, IMHO.

It's a bad ratio of handler-to-dog for public spaces.

If you express exactly what you mean by "if something happens" I may be able to answer .I have already explained that it is the exception rather than the rule to have my dogs off leash.When walking them together on leash I have encountered,what I consider,pretty much every situation that might cause problems,without problems occurring, other dogs offleash amd on growling and lunging at my dogs and they all simply ignore that occurrance and I keep moving ,cyclist,crowds of people,whatever noise you care to mention,cats,squirrels,pigeons I could go on but none of these situations cause a problem,I'm not overpowered by the pack and pulled along as I have already shown in videos;just to refresh :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lT7npxin6WA&feature=share&list=UUKl6g2JcIjvgmhEM1htTQHg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cgd7cdHXY4&feature=share&list=UUKl6g2JcIjvgmhEM1htTQHg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUtGgRraphc&feature=share&list=UUKl6g2JcIjvgmhEM1htTQHg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvV6NBza6GE&feature=share&list=UUKl6g2JcIjvgmhEM1htTQHg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7XbbA94-dg&feature=share&list=UUKl6g2JcIjvgmhEM1htTQHg

Note the dogs walk only at my side or behind me at all times.

Here is another video of me training together,changing pace and getting them to all come to a stop,the dound is on and note the corrections that occurr and how quickly the corrections take effect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YHU5A5Uh-I&feature=share&list=UUKl6g2JcIjvgmhEM1htTQHg



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUtGgRraphc&feature=share&list=UUKl6g2JcIjvgmhEM1htTQHg

I not only take them out altogether but seperately also.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fndfLkHULtQ&feature=share&list=UUKl6g2JcIjvgmhEM1htTQHg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32bnq-e2CJ0&feature=share&list=UUKl6g2JcIjvgmhEM1htTQHg

I have never encountered a time when I have not been able to keep them under control when they are all leashed and I hold them in one hand which allows me to step in front of them something you will notice I do often in my videos.Additionally whilst accept the feed back regarding them interacting with other dogs it is obvious to see that they are not dog agressive individually or as a pack,I have posted over 30 videos here and when you consider the breed there is never any sign of grabbing or growling at other dogs.I have spent alot of time getting them all to be tolerant and un-nerved of everything I can.
So if you would be more precise of what sort of thing you are trying to say I will perhaps either learn something or explain what I would do or have already done depending on the situation you describe.

Have you read the above post I posted Duane?

 Quote: Betty Landercasp

Is the field you walked your "pack" in public land?

Or, are those your cattle, on your land?



These are yes or no questions about the field with cattle.

still working on the recall i see . . .

if i was helping here's what i would say :

don't issue a command you don't have near 100 % confidence the dog will comply with otherwise you are training the dog he can ignore your command or that your command has little or no meaning unless the conditions are right for him to comply . train in conditions with more control over the dog , either on lead , a more confined area with less distractions , the use of an e-collar .

use consistent commands . in that video you use at least four different verbals for recall , and in my observation , don't get real compliance in any one of the dogs although it is hard to see exactly what the dogs who do come close are actually doing .

if you issue a command and expect a consistent response from the dog , then your actions need to reflect that . for example , if you are using " come " as " i want you to come from where you are , whatever you are doing , and sit in front of me " , then you need to present yourself so the dog can comply . walking around with a camera , attending to several dogs with their various different behaviours , all the while trying to get a recall from the one with the elevated prey drive does not look like productive , constructive training .

you can have any number of commands to mean specific responses from the dog , but you have train them in isolation to be sure each dog understand exactly what is meant . then when you take it out into the big world you have a realistic expectation the dog will comply , but you have to be able to back up your commands and follow through so the message is firmly implanted in the dogs' mind , whatever the circumstances .

another example , if you want to use " this way " , as " ok , we're all going in this direction , move along with me " , that is a different command ( and expected response from you and the dog(s) ) than " come " .

a while back you asked for an example of something " going wrong " . . . here's one for you : what if that other dog did something that pissed off the dog you couldn't recall and it wound up in a physical altercation ? what if the other owner got into it trying to separate them and wound up sustaining injuries ? what would happen if the other dogs became involved , or even how you would maintain any control over them while you extricated your dog from the melee , dealt with the other dog and it's possibly injured owner .


have i said some of this stuff before ?