Nancy,

I would suggest the book Natural Nutrition for Dogs and Cats it helped me alot. You can find it here http://www.leerburg.com/935.htm

I don't think no one can say what it will cost you because alot of it depends on what is available in your area.

-Jason

there is a very good chance that switching to raw will solve your dog's skin problem.

for a dog that gulps his food, it's better to give larger pieces, not smaller ones. then he has to work to break the food down.

did you mention the size of your dogs? i have mastiffs. the one who passed away last summer easily ate a whole chicken (not cut up) for breakfast. the smaller boy eats half a chicken, and i cut it in half using a very sharp, heavy knife that is made for that.

my annual cost to feed one mastiff, including all veterinary care, toys, and training equipment, is $500. it's a lot cheaper than premium kibble. it's especially cheaper because the dog will hardly ever need to go to the vet. tucker was at the vet twice a week the first year after we adopted him at age 2. he had endless problems. after we switched to raw, the vet was actually calling to see how come we haven't been around--she missed him! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> he did not need much vet care after we switched.

Both of my dogs are German Shepherds. Kato, my male, just turned a year old and is about 90 lbs. He has all the issues with his skin. And he is also the one that inhales everything. Including the hamster, 1/2lb of chocolate, and the occasional shredded paperback. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> My female is on the small side, about 65 lbs. She is the slowest and pickiest eater. She is going to be the one to snub her nose at raw.

Well the morning feeding went mostly as I imagined it would. Kato ate every scrap and wanted more. Princess, well lets just say she is going to be very hungry later on. I cut pieces off of the chicken and fed her by hand, but she refused to actually tear the meat herself. And bone, she wanted nothing to do with it. She snubbed her nose at it and walked away. I swear she is pouting. I have given specific instructions to the kids and grandma, since I am working tonight. Food is in fridge and labled for each dog, I even hid the bag of kibble. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Grandmas always seem to give in. This raw thing is not as hard as I thought it would be. Cutting up whole chickens is time consuming though. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Everyone.. Thanks for all the help and the PMs. I could not have done it without you. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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....And bone, she wanted nothing to do with it. She snubbed her nose at it and walked away..... Cutting up whole chickens is time consuming though......

Chicken backs cost about the same as whole chickens and have softer bones for the begginer dog.

I wanted to start with backs, but could not find any at the grocery store. Maybe because it was 3am and the meat department was closed? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> My local butcher wants to charge .90/lb for a 40lb case. Even if I buy in large quanities. And according to the butcher shop, they don't have scraps to dispose of. They were pretty rude about the whole thing. You should have seen the look of horror that came over the girl when I asked about ordering chicken necks. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

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I wanted to start with backs, but could not find any at the grocery store. Maybe because it was 3am and the meat department was closed? .....And according to the butcher shop, they don't have scraps to dispose of. They were pretty rude about the whole thing. You should have seen the look of horror that came over the girl when I asked about ordering chicken necks. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

That probably was why you couldn't get backs (at 3 a.m.). And actually, you probably don't want what the butcher would call scraps. That may mean excess fat and skin, and large bones from, say, hog shoulders, etc.

But the disdain about asking for backs or necks is ridiculous. Even aside from pet food, many people make stock from backs and necks.

Having backs depends on which way the chicken is cut up (either quartered or halved, or into pieces: 2 drumsticks, the breast or breast halves, and 2 thighs). Chicken cut the second way, which is most chicken in markets, leaves the backs. So unless they are selling ALL halves and quarters, which is never the case, then they do have backs left over. You will want to speak to the real butcher (not a counter help person) -- the person who makes the primal cuts and who cuts up the whole poultry. The person who weighs out deli meats or packages up your hamburger is less likely to know anything about what's left in the freezer. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> You might want to call and ask when the butcher is on duty.

And RUDE? To someone who is a potential customer asking a question? Something is wrong there! You want to speak to the person who cares about keeping a customer and who knows about the product.

I've asked around at several locals markets before and usually get that same weird look. I found a small local market that cuts their own chickens so they have a regular small supply, but the price has fluctuated from 0.69 to as high as 1.19 - based on what I don't know. It's not like it's barrels of crude!<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I've learned not to tell local friends as I end up cutting off my own supply!

I just checked with a local Stater Bros and they said they'd order some at .99 - no great deal. I think he said they were Foster Farms, 12 pkgs per case, but he wasn't sure how big a pkg was, thought it was about 1-1/2 lb. I'll be checking that out later this week as a backup source.

The local co-op site sells a lot of variety at good prices. I may have to try them out this year. I see they now have "non volunteer" pricing (+25%) for those who don't want to or can't be involved as a volunter in the order/distribution process. The non volunteer price for chicken backs is $17/40lb. case. You can get an idea of what it's all about on their web site - http://socalbarf.com/socalhome.htm - but the order info and price pages are only open thru Jan 5, the last day to order for this month.

Maybe raw food people in other areas can get together and form something similar. This group's pickups sites run from the southern end of California all the way into No. Calif, AZ and NV!

Too bad I live 2500 miles away. Waiting for a call back from the owner of a meat processing/smokehouse place out here. They sell everything. If you want it, they will get it. Hopefully he can work out a good price for me. I am not going to waste my time with the local butcher. If thats how they treat their customers, I can spend my money someplace else.

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.....I am not going to waste my time with the local butcher. If thats how they treat their customers, I can spend my money someplace else.

I agree 110%. And to really emphasize how their customer service has lost them some sales, I would *tell them.* Even if just a calm telephone call to the owner, saying "I thought it would be helpful to you in the future if you knew why I am taking my business elsewhere...."

Most businesses now have a web site with a "contact us" button way down at the bottom of the Home page, and that works great too.

Vote with your wallet, I say! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />