Patrick, he's fine, he just got a puncture wound to his right ear and it's healing ( Matt said after the episode.."Well, that certainly made it real for me" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> ).

I lost control of Fetz starting in Ob - I forgot my retrieval item and borrowed a length of hose that my friend used which was too long to hide in my pocket. The evaluator placed the item on the ground but Fetz stayed keyed on the item and in drive and became progressively less controlled during the trial and by the third bite work exercise he was hand hunting and wouldn't out down under control and with him leaping up and trying to bite a hand or face of the decoy, the exercise was wisely terminated.
Funny how just something out of the ordinary like that will start a cascade of events that ends in failure. Such is the life of a high drive dog that's trial-wise ( he's gonna receive a whole lot of compulsion to fix this, needless to say )

Matt's decoy work was excellent and helped to avert a serious injury from a dog that was highly motivated to injure him ( and the judging was very fair also, I certainly deserved to fail with these actions )

Barb,
I'm in no way mad at you, I posted those statements about the legal possibilities for your own safety, believe me - better safe than sorry.
And you and I just have a different opinion - you're saying that you haven't seen a Mastiff-type that won't protect, while I'm saying that I've seen in upwards of a *hundred* mastiff-types where only two would maybe protect .
If you're doing ppd's as your profession and testing more dogs than me, maybe you're testing them in a different way that I need to learn. Congratulations on your success in this type of training, maybe I'll become better able to mimic your abilities if I work more of these type dogs ( but you'd think at the 100 mark I'd find more than one or two that would could pass the testing...) - and I appreciate any advice that you have regarding why I've had so many of these dogs fail my testing ( when a much higher percent of GSD's and Mal's pass ) , what am I doing wrong here?

Barbara, will you explain what your definition of "protect" is?


Maybe some specific examples of instances where you have seen a mastiff protect as well. The more specific, the better.

I have a 15 month old CC and I can honestly say that early test showed zero prey drive on 3 out of 4 puppies tested. Though these dogs are very social I agree that training for the pupose of PP is a waste of time and money if using a trainer. I'll go one step further to say that I find the mastiff breeds to be natural protectors of their homes and families and can show all the aggression of a trained dog when placed in an uncomfortable situation in thier own home. the dogs seem to know when things aren't right and get very nasty. My CC actually puts herself between me and unwanted guest and agressively askes that guest to leave. She has no training in PP, just obedience.

Protect: to prevent bodily harm to the handler. This could involve with or without biting, but if engaging the attacker is neccessary, then it must be done without hesitation.

Does Mastiff include cross breeds also? Just to define, I use the word 'mastiff' as any mastiff type, cross or pure.

If you're including cross breeds, I've seen protection with my own dog in scenarios that include home invasions, and various protection of handler scenarios. I'm not going into detail with that because the felines are already beginning to hiss and spit in another thread and I'm not going to fuel any Peta style agendas or get into a pissing match with anyone. If you absolutely must know feel free to PM me.

There are also some real life situations that occured the more serious of which a group of crack heads surrounded us in a circle, cursing and acting in ways that it was obvious they were going to kick our ass if they could, the dog too. The dog started this sweep like motion is the best way I can describe it to get at them, and he started dragging my husband like a rag doll to get them. They took off, but initially they were transfixed slowly backing up watching the dog in shock I guess. It was a sight to behold and to date I've never been able to replicate that reaction in him in any scenarios. Nobody got bit, but it took all of both of our efforts to hold him back. I could have let the dog bite them and gotten away with it because it would have been justified, but his reaction was so scary I remember being concerned for their safety and forgetting my own. At that point I didn't know his propensity, and that was one of the final situations that gave birth to the whole scenario thing, because he needed some serious control with all that was going on in the neighborhood, and scenarios were the only thing I could think of to show him what I expected of him.

My female has undergone a very minor home invasion scenario with very little pressure because of her age. The pressure was on my male but I allowed her to be present because she had been exhibiting some behaviors that had me questioning her temperament. She showed no hesitation in that situation and a few others where my male wasn't there, when she thought someone was in danger. No serious pressure has been put on her so whether she can handle street style pressure is unknown at this point and she hasn't even begun to be worked up to that, if she ever is at all.

I've seen videos of Presa's, Bandogs, Neo's and Corso's that were defense of handler and type scenarios, some with decent physical and psychological pressure.

Interesting scenario about the circle of crack addicts. Here they would have shot you and your dog. Probably eat the dog too. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Ed, you need to make a "roll eyes" Graemlin available. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I'm confused, are you saying you don't believe it? The crack heads didn't have guns here. Maybe they sold them for crack? Honestly, I've always wondered why they didn't burn my house down at the very least. The other side of town is more serious. A drug addict just shot a neighbor with a cross bow <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> The guy who was shot pulled it out, and ripped his guts out. He died. If you don't believe that I can probably dig up an article online <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Dang, Barbara, your neighborhood sounds almost as good as mine! The current and the previous. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Drug dealers really hate doing business with Dobes hanging over the fence, too.

Oddly enough, the hang-out after dark for the druggies at my old house was the overflow parking lot for a church. Sundays and Wednesdays, churchgoers could park right next to my fence and the dogs never let out a peep at them. Another example of dogs' judgement of character/intent skills.

Just want to add my two cent.....

First off in no way does or did Fetz get "out of control" he is a VERY high drive dog and Will has done an amazing job at controlling that. I worked him during the open field day on Friday and he was great very well trained, Sunday was just a "dog day" no fault to the handler we have all had them, and if you haven't then you will. IMO Fetz will bite for real, he will protect Will if needed and I would hate to be the reciver of the a$$ whooping. Like I said to Will After the trial, when he was jumping up it was getting Very real very quick.

As for Corso I have seen good and bad but mostly bad. We have a breeder here in Augusta area named David Kuneman that has some nice ones that are very well trained but it seems Dave always gets talked in to taking on "projects" for other people. The Corsos at the ASR trial where nice, Greg's dog was well trained and had a nice bite, but even with his dog like most I have seen they like to target the wrist or hand area. Now this could be because of their size and lack of abilty to go higher. We had a Corso at the Augusta trial put a real hurting on a decoy by almost crushing his elbow. So it is a toss up. But a dog is a dog I have seen Some mals and some GSD I would give a penny for, it all falls back on thier training and or lack there of. If the foundation training is done right then they might be able to go further, only time will tell. The pressure in Level one gets a heck of alot harder, and if the dog is not ready for it or not trained for it then he will get ran that is a fact. A GSD was shut down this weekend, so it can happen to us all. If Greg trains for it and has his dog ready for the pressure then he should make it. I do not predict a high score but I think he can pass. Some breeds simply give up points by walking on the field at no fault of thier own, but a Corso just wil not bite as full as a Mal or a GSD and when the Bicep target is given will he be able to get up that high to get it. It should be interesting to see how this all plays out. Lucky for the breed they have a dedicated group of people backing them, and a good crop of trainer so things should go smoothly. Well as smooth as they can.

Matt Hammond

 Quote:

So their strengths:

Loud bark
Formidable appearance and deterrence factor


Their weaknesses:

Lack of speed and agility
Frequent nerve issues
On the lower end of canine IQ and lower trainability level
High degree of owner 'blindness" regarding the breeds flaws
Rapid fatigue related to their size

You forgot the Economics as a downside for a lot off breeds including GSD if you compare them to Mals. Let me explain myself. it is not the purchase price that is the negative factor but the fact that the "bigger" dogs live not so long as a smaller dog with the Mal at the upper limit off the small dogs. If you have to train for 2 years or more to get some results but you can only work 2or 3 years with that dog in stead off 5 or 6 with a smaller one lots off people will chose the smaller one.

I have watched the threads on the Cane and Boerboel. I understand the attraction to these breeds, they are impressive animals to look at, 35 years ago I considered buying a bull breed as a protection dog.

The fact is the majority of dogs in these breeds will not do the work. They lack the nerves and drive to become effective protection dogs. Most lack prey drive.

There are of course acceptations to the rule (and I recently saw one) but over all these breeds are a visual deterrence and not much more. Yes there are some dogs like those that killed the lady in CA - fact is dogs like that need a bullet in the head - (along with their owners)

I will not allow the a few people on this board to give the impression that these breeds are more than they actually are. You may have nice pets - that’s all you have. I agree 100% with Will here. I will not debate this nor will I allow my board to become a messenger of inaccurate information on working dogs.