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What do you think about Bart Bellon's interview he did with Mike Ellis, where he states that he doesn't want a dog that needs socialization?

If you have the luxury of finding a dog that meets this type of criterea then great, but most people won't send their dog back to the breeder after a year because the lack of socialization idea backfired. I don't think it means a dog is a bad working dog, it just means this guy has much more time, patience and selection knowledge than other people, or at least thinks he does. Then there's the other question here -- if you are training strictly for sport then perhaps it's OK if the only thing the dog knows in life is the training and trial fields... but if you are training a dog as a PPD or even as a nice Pet then you want that dog to be absolutely neutral and stable in ANY environment, and that includes being able to walk and work around other dogs without having to worry about your dog running around trying to eat Canine.

What would you say if I said not only do I agree, I don't really bother with socialization too much, and see no difference then when I did.

This guy really knows his stuff, probably more so than anyone here I have ever heard of.

I sorta agree...socialization is very good, but with a really good dog, it shouldn't matter so much. While I exposed my dog as a pup to various things, it wasn't as much as I've heard others do. He's never been to a 7-11 or anything remotely similar until he was 7 months old, and when I did (just waited outside for a friend while cars and people came by), nothing terrible happened. He just had a "WTF" moment when a car came up an inch away from us, but after that first time he began ignoring them. The people he also totally ignored, and I have never had people come up and pet/feed/etc. him (just exposed him to regular walking on the streets). Also, my other dog who'm I've gone everywhere with, have never been socialized as a puppy. Ignores people and copes with new things very well. And this last one isn't a working dog by any means.

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What do you think about Bart Bellon's interview he did with Mike Ellis, where he states that he doesn't want a dog that needs socialization?

I found that article a good read. Bart Bellon's philosophy on dog training is one that he's built after decades of personal handling experience (which I don't have) and is quite a bit more intensive than I need at this point. I picked the best puppy I could find in the greater New England area for future Schutzhund work, this was based on both mine and the breeders opinion. At 7 weeks of age he was already picking up a Schutzhund I dumbbell and walking around with it, he showed great bite and grip skills with excellent prey drive. He also comes from superior bloodlines whose family has been proven excellent working dogs. However, with all that said, if he doesn't turn out to be the working dog I'd hoped for, that doesn't mean I won't continue to love him and provide him with a quality life. Bart Bellon is definitely approaching his dogs from a different angle: failure is not an option. I'm curious to know what he does with the dogs he picks out that don't perform as he'd expected?

All in all I'm trying to say that while it's obvious Bart Bellon is excellent at what he does, and his methods have been proven, they're not the same methods that are needed for every handler and their dog, including myself.

While I enjoyed reading the article by Bart Bellon, I think his needs and desires in a dog are very narrow and specific to his goals for the dog. AND he's very particular on the front end (and has the knowledge to do this) on the specific puppy he gets:

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Do you socialize your puppies in public? No. I go only to the training field, in my car. If the dog is good then he does not need to go all these places, if he is afraid then you can make it a little better, but you can never change the fact that he is afraid. This is not the dog for me.

How do you choose a puppy? I go to the litter, only the males, and I want to see puppies that are curious. They should want to chase and use their mouths. I throw something, like keys, and the good ones will go grab them, not necessarily bring them back, but they will get them. Then I take a very soft jute sleeve and let them bite.

I also think because dogs and training are his life, he's got alot more time to work with these dogs than many of us do. And they fit into a specific lifestyle he has set up.

I know for ME, my life is alot more full of people, friends, other dogs, family, social activities, etc then just my dog trials. And I would rather have my dogs be a PART of that life, and not excuded from it because they have not been socialized and are not comfortable around my nephews, other family dogs, new family members, small children, new sites and sounds. I can take my dogs to hotels/motels, family reunions, to visit friends, on vacation, and so on.

Think some of us tend to unintentionally be a bit 'selfish' by thinking only of our desire to have our dogs only love us, obey us, and listen to us for our training goals. Instead of possibly setting up our dogs to be confident and secure dogs that are comfortable in all situations thru out their lives. If my dogs have to be in a kennel for a few days (though they never have because I have friends lined up to take care of them if I have to leave town), or at the vets if they are sick, or (God forbid) something happens to me............... I have socialized and set my dogs up to be ok in these situations. They won't be terrorizing the kennel/vet staff. They won't be so stressed because I'm not around. And they won't have to be put down if I am not around because no one else can deal with an 80 pound GSD that is out of control with fear/aggression because the ONLY secure person in their life is now missing.

Quote:And they won't have to be put down if I am not around because no one else can deal with an 80 pound GSD that is out of control with fear/aggression because the ONLY secure person in their life is now missing

So what you are saying is that without socialization, you will have an out of control fear/aggression dog? If you come to my house you can see that this is not so. All my dogs are friendly, and have none of the issues you are talking about.

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So what you are saying is that without socialization, you will have an out of control fear/aggression dog?

Sorry, not saying that about you obviously. Or maybe some others.

But I do say that MAY be the result if a dog is not exposed to, and used to being around other people (without you) or listen to other people (without you) or in new/strange situations (without you). And I do know some people that are SO focused on making sure their puppy ONLY stays at their house, and listens to only to them, and has NO contact with other dogs or people, that their dogs can not be really trusted in public in general, let alone when strangers or new dogs come in the house.

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......But I do say that MAY be the result if a dog is not exposed to, and used to being around other people (without you) or listen to other people (without you) or in new/strange situations (without you). And I do know some people that are SO focused on making sure their puppy ONLY stays at their house, and listens to only to them, and has NO contact with other dogs or people, that their dogs can not be really trusted in public in general, let alone when strangers or new dogs come in the house.

Maybe I'm misconstruing......so tell me if I am. I've been following this with a lot of interest.

My dogs don't socialize with other dogs. They pass them of course, and they see them in various places, but they pay attention to me and not other dogs. Of course, I have two, so their pack includes more than one dog. But I never thought they had a need to interact with anyone outside their pack. Even in training club, no one commands someone else's dog, and the dogs don't socialize, in general. (A couple do who know each other outside the club; mine don't.)

They are friendly but calm when we have company. They never go anywhere without me, except when I travel to the East Coast every 3 months, and then they have a sitter in the house, who they've known for a long time.

Now I am wondering if I'm wrong.

I hope there is more on this thread. Thanks for these points of view!

Same here. No contact with other dogs, no socialization with strangers. Other dogs are ignored. Had two visitors over last night that the dogs just ignored, sat amongst them without barking or trouble. I'm thinking as long as you didn't raise your dog completely isolated from all normal life, then you don't necessarily have to 'show him everything'. The dog should be able to use his experiences in general to help him cope with stranger-than-normal things in the future, i.e. he's seen people from afar and has never had a negative experience with them, why should he be afraid of them?

I have read that interview few times and i seem to find new stuff in it every time i read it. Mr. Bellon to me represents old school view, one where more emphase is put on stock quality than on training. If it does not work it is not worth its meal... I am attracted to this (KNPV being just like that) but as i come from totaly different culture regarding dogs (and most of you americans do to) it is difficult to grasp this methods. Especialy when 'new' trainig methods get lesser dogs do more (where is other story).

I just love "Gattaca" but old school way is the way to go with dogs...