Connie,
This is my opinion ( as always <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ).....

It is indeed common to have the decoy as the TD in a club, usually because that person is the most experienced.

However......I think that while doing decoy work, you're concentrating on the dog and safety, and that makes for a less than perfect situation for the handler, especially a novice handler. So being the TD and the decoy is a less than ideal situation in my view.

The best outcome seems to happen when you have an experienced TD that can give the plan to the decoy and handler before starting an exercise ( ideally, the dog is still in the car and hasn't come onto the field yet ) and the TD can observe the exercise first hand and give advice to the handler as needed during the exercise and not have to worry about also catching the dog, etc.

Again, just my opinion, but I've seen lots of different training set-ups, and this has always worked best in my view.

 Quote:

Connie,
This is my opinion ( as always <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ).....It is indeed common to have the decoy as the TD in a club, usually because that person is the most experienced.....However......I think that while doing decoy work, you're concentrating on the dog and safety, and that makes for a less than perfect situation for the handler, especially a novice handler. So being the TD and the decoy is a less than ideal situation in my view. ....The best outcome seems to happen when you have an experienced TD that can give the plan to the decoy and handler before starting an exercise ( ideally, the dog is still in the car and hasn't come onto the field yet ) and the TD can observe the exercise first hand and give advice to the handler as needed during the exercise and not have to worry about also catching the dog, etc. ....Again, just my opinion, but I've seen lots of different training set-ups, and this has always worked best in my view.

I appreciate this input, Will.

We have some of what we need, including the people and the field (with a storage building), which we already use for dog training of other types. Some of us even have the right dogs! LOL!

But we are all 100% newbies to SchH, and finding the experienced decoy alone is going kinda slowly.

So we thought ... well, maybe a shortcut ....... but, like most shortcuts, it doesn't sound perfect! <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks again. Also, Scott, I printed out your list. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

John, does having or not having a dog titled have any impact on your thoughts about starting a schH club? As I said before, it killed my notion (silly me?) of getting a club going. Don't get me wrong, I am a go getter and a big time do it yourselfer, (ie: gardening, building, medicine, business etc...) But, I tend to "pioneer" my path(s) with knowledge base and expert advice/experience.

The dedication I imagine it takes to (simply <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />title a dog, IMO, is profound. Couple that with actually running the club (keep in mind voluntary time and effort--don't know for sure, but believe there are not significant capital gains (if any) in starting a schH club)

I guess how well a novice could run a club AND work towards titling a dog is subjective and variable. Are you looking to do both or one or the other? My guess is that it would take an incredibly talented person with a lot of time and money to do both and be successful.

JMO I've been forming since no one has directly addressed the topic of credibility/capability in running a club. Perhaps I'm thinking too much... <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Hmmm,

Will brings up pretty much everything, but I'll add my two cents anyways.

You need a good trainer and if you can provide that than it is great, but keep in mind that training other folks dogs will require you to 1) have a back ground in Schutzhund with at least two dogs titled all the way up and more if possible; and 2) you've got to be an experienced certified helper. Plus, I find that a lot of trainers have trouble placing the concentration into their own dogs since they are so focused on helping others.

I would think that the best bet would be to take a group of experienced folks in Schutzhund and AKC tracking that are just starting to get tired of making long trips to be a club.

Beth,
This is meant in no way meant as a put down for you or David, but in my long experience with many club set-ups in SchH, ya'll have gone the route of basically paying an individual for lessons, and this is by far the most unstable type of relationship for advancing in SchH.

You gain many of the disadvantages of a club ( waiting to go onto the field, etc ) but none of the advantages ( no club cohesiveness, no working towards common goals, no advancing of the club ). And the fact that everyone is paying for a "lesson" tends to add a bad air to the training over the course of time. I've seen this happen every time in this type of set-up, unless the trainer was a *top* National/ World class trainer and deserved the money. Which is rarely the case.
Maybe I'm old fashioned, but SchH is a sport and all of us make sacrifices for the entire sport, to include our club. When someone is just doing it for money, it set-ups an attitude that spreads to all involved in a negative way. And that's bad for the long term.

Again, just my observation and not meant as a put-down, so please don't attack the messenger here....

Also, beware of the "club" that is advertised and used by private individuals for personal gain.

In other words, certain individuals have a viable club with Schuthund USA, the members have all had some level of success and the training is good quality BUT it's all held on private property with EXORBITANT club dues being collected and all monies being stuffed in the "owner's" pocket. The members are then expected to fork out money on top of the ridiculously high "dues" to cover trial expenses which is technically to come from the club treasury. Funny thing, clubs like this many times don't have a treasury, separate account or treasury report. HMMMMM?

Sounds like the organization being used for personal profit bigtime to me.

I have nothing against people taking lessons privately to advance their training but when a club is used to make money for one particular individual then the whole sport is compromised. This is supposed to be illegal under USA's bylaws, but it's happening as we speak.

I have no problem with the type of training group that Beth is running right now, it's all up front and no claims of club membership are alluded to at all. I know Dave Blank and he is a top notch helper and all around good guy. If I lived a bit closer I wouldn't hesitate to train with these guys. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi Will - no offense taken. You are absolutely correct...we are currently in the mode to make sure a person we believe is a qualified trainer is making $$ for training provided. It is up to each individual to check it out, and decide if that particular brand of training is worth it or not. If not, that's AOK fine.

I suspect this group will evolve someday in differing directions. That's one of the reasons we prefer to keep it as a "training group" rather than a club.

Mean time, Hubby and I volunteer our place, our video camera, and our web expertise (for better or worse) moving towards our own training goals. MY aren't we selfish!!!!

Does anyone have more feedback on insurance related issues??

Thanks!

Beth

Yes, the type of insurance that Will suggested that is specifically for sport dogs or working dogs may be something you’ll want to look into. If you already have homeowner's insurance than you may want to sit down with your insurance agent and in the interest of full disclosure tell him what you're doing, read through the policy, and determine whether an incident during training would be covered and to what extent. State law controls on this issue to a great extent so it is critical you know your state's policy on waivers, assumption of the risk, and contributory or comparative negligence. Some folks will tell you that insurance is a draw to have folks sue you, but if you have any assets at all like a home, cars, boat, land, money in the bank, etcetera they are in themselves motivation to sue you.

It always amazes me that clubs have at best poor waivers they've downloaded from some place or in some cases nothing at all (really come on folks). Many clubs have zero insurance and that just opens up multiple people to severe liability (property possessor, property owner, trainers, handlers, helpers, etcetera).

I think it is more than reasonable to charge your club members a fee to cover the costs of added insurance, training equipment, maintenance of the field, and perhaps even the cost of having an attorney draw-up a nice waiver along with providing you a memorandum on the state of the law as it applies to domestic dogs in your home town and state. Some insurance agents may provide you with a waiver their attorneys have already drawn-up for this type of activity so again full disclosure and talk to them as they work for you. Training dogs is great fun, but it is not worth the risk of losing your home and kids college funds so please be smart about it.