There is no reason you can't work a PPD or PSD on a hard sleeve
No one is disputing that. I'm sure most trainers do use a hard sleeve for bite developement,
especially American trainers. I would just prefer my PP dog to have a suit foundation rather than a sleeve foundation. Personal preference.

Scott,I don't understand the "especially Americans" part of your post.

I'd bet the vast majority of dogs overseas are trained with sleeves as well. Other than the relatively small number of Ring trainers (KNPV,NVBK,Mondio, etc) just about every dog in Europe starts on a sleeve.

I'm not looking to argue, I just wonder what prompted you to say that and what your reasoning was?

I was considering the foundation for protection work in this country being Schutzhund. I realize the Mother country is Germany but I've talked to alot of French trainers (sorry to mix sport with the thread)and a handful of KNPV that don't use the sleeve at all. I realize that most everyone uses a sleeve. I just wouldn't start a pup on one for PP if it were my dog.
I've seen dozens of fresh imports chase down a decoy only to pass them looking for the arm bite. this is after civil aggitation and a flee from the dog. You have to stick an arm sleeve on your back for a target.

Scott,
Once that problem has been identified, I should think it would be up to the trainer to make some changes to ensure the dog is civil. It is probably going to take some work but its not impossible. To continue to use the sleeve when the dog is targeting it is a waste of time. Like will said., Muzzle work and hidden sleeve work should fix the problem.

Matthew.
Quote:" There is no reason you can't work a PPD or PSD on a hard sleeve. Once you work that first bite on a hidden sleeve, the dog knows what he's working with and you might as well go back onto the sleeve or a suit."

But getting the dog to be truely civil and willing to bite/engage the perp without any protective gear in plain sight is the primary goal that I'm discussing here.
The willingness of a PPD to bite is more important than it's grip quality. Even a shallow bite/ grip will slow down an attacker, giving the handler time to escape, draw a firearm, or whatever other option has been planned for the situation by the handler. None of us here expect the dog to be able to immediately neutralize *any* threat - a bad guy with enough drugs in his system is going to be kinda tolerate to pain ( most K-9 handlers have seen some variation of this theme on the street ) and their attack is slowed down by them having to drag the dog along as they continue to advance towards you - I've actually had perps neutralized by *tripping* over the K-9 that was attached to them by the bite, the perp hardly noticed the bite thanks to a mixture of crack cocaine and crystal meth.

And I personally don't know any trainers of real PPD's ( *real* in my opinion, anyway ) that don't start training on a leg sleeve. The arm sleeve plays a minor part in the training, and I could do without one period if push came to shove.

My sport dogs, or dual purpose sport/PPd's ( and let's not kid ourselves here, your scores will ultimately suffer a bit if you're training both ) are trained with sleeves, but it's a compromise and I would try and talk a client out of it.

William,

I am not talking about how you tune up, and tactically train an adult dog... I am talking about the foundation training for a puppy that is to become a PSD/PPD/WMD/NSD, etc..

I am very aware of the use of hidden sleeves, the need for a service dog to be civil, and want to bite the man....

What my question was in regards to is the earlier statement that sleeves are for sport work...

My question to you is, how do you train puppies, in learning how (not where, or when) to bite.

You did state that you use (as most other "REAL" trainers, etc) leg sleeves.. but that is still a sleeve, correct? made of jute, or synthetic, and used to slip, and allow the dog to carry (to promote his confidence, prey, etc), correct.

I am not trying to sound cocky, or over-knowledgeable, just trying to clarify things.

Originally posted by VanCamp Robert:
I'd bet the vast majority of dogs overseas are trained with sleeves as well. Other than the relatively small number of Ring trainers (KNPV,NVBK,Mondio, etc) just about every dog in Europe starts on a sleeve. Actually, the NVBK and Mondio trainers that I know of use sleeves for all their beginner dogs, then transition to suit work.

The main purpose of a sleeve is to teach targeting, and grip fundamentals... the secondary use is that a sleeve can be slipped to allow the dog to perceive a victory..

I would hate to be a dog that never understood that he won.... especially as a young pup (4-10 months)

In order of training:
Rag
Puppy tug
Leg sleeve ( yes, it's released on the bite and the dog gets to carry it for a few sessions)

The dog learns to bite and win on the above items.
Then onto:

Hidden sleeve
Muzzle work

The dog is worked in fight drive for the last two, obviously.

That is the correct order for training a PPD in bite training

Originally posted by Will Rambeau:
In order of training:
Rag
Puppy tug
Leg sleeve ( yes, it's released on the bite and the dog gets to carry it for a few sessions)

The dog learns to bite and win on the above items.
Then onto:

Hidden sleeve
Muzzle work I absolutely agree with your above agenda...

I did not think we would actually disagree.. Here is the reason for my post:

You wrote earlier: are you planning to be attacked by someone wearing a sleeve?

If the dog is carrying a sleeve and running in a circle, you're training for sport. If you're using a sleeve you're training for sport.

Personal protection is trained with hidden sleeves and muzzles.

You've got sort of the right idea about the carrying having no use in PPD's, but you're still sport training. You and your trainer need to re-evaluate your training plan if PP is your major goal. This sounded to me as if you were stating that there was no purpose for a sleeve in developmental bite work.. which prompted my origional question to you..

I was just trying to clear things up for the sake of the entire thread.. thanks for the responses Will!

Some one please educate me on the "leg sleeve"that can be slipped.Where I'm from we only have the pants portion of the body suit for leg bites,where can I get a slippable leg sleeve?Web site? phone number?or address please?