We train on what is called 'the missing man.' Four or five individuals in a vehicle and all but one are apprehended at the vehicle site. The dog is scented on the complete vehicle, then scented on the remaining occupants which allows him to discount all those scents present...then he determines the appropriate scent trail from the vehicle. We use 'discounting' in our business A LOT concerning things that I can't talk about electronically (wish I could)...and amazingly the dogs are quite successful in this particular mission. Is this reasoning? Is this thinking? As a prey animal wouldn't he do the same in the wild just in order to survive? An example would be...a dog chasing a rabbit. He uses angles to shorten the distance between himself and lunch, so, did he reason or did he miss lunch so often that eventually his actions were learned and reasoning actually wasn't an issue?

Nancy jacoy "If they can sort the scents of very dead humans from that of dead animals it seems targeting live humans vs other animals would be a cakewalk."

In the UK I believe it is illegal to use human remains for dog training. The handlers there use pig products which supposedly are extremely similar to humans during decomposition. It may not be so easy after all.

It would seem that the question of base human scent is valid. When training a dog to locate articles previously held by humans, the dog does not have a problem in finding them even if the dog is not introduced to the person hiding the article.

Now...whether meat eaters have a different odor than vegans, I dont know. I do know that meat eaters have odiferous BMs as opposed to plant eaters. At least in the animal world.

Howard

David, The "missing man" training you speak of is not unknown to me. It is basically scent discrimination, either trained or naturally done on the dogs' part. Both my patrol dogs, and I'm sure thousands of others, will do this when conducting building or area searches when there are numerous persons present. Mine would actually go officer to officer prior to entering a building or open area to discount the specific odor or scent picture before searching. I'm sure its a natural instinct.

As far as the rabbit scenario...I dont know if the dog was actually reasoning but is probably reacting to prior experiences in the pursuit of this type of prey animal.

Howard

 Quote: Howard Knauf

In the UK I believe it is illegal to use human remains for dog training. The handlers there use pig products which supposedly are extremely similar to humans during decomposition. It may not be so easy after all.

IMO, this is a poor dog training. If that is all you have to train with based on the law, then so be it, but realize the the dog-handler team has some serious limitations in practical deployment. While the porcine odor may be similar, it is not the same, kind of like the Sigma Pseudo Cadaver odor. My wife's HRD dog has discriminated between pork and HR in training exercises. The challenging part of cadaver the potential for the scent profile to change as decomposition takes place. This is why I tend to believe that there is a 'base' human scent, or scent profile.

Howard...I tend to agree. But, does 'prior experiences' relate to thinking, which then would require rationalization and reasoning in order to solve the problem? Isn't human intelligence based on 'prior experiences'...a kind of R&D...or 'trial by error?' Not disagreeing...just asking?
dlayne

 Quote: Amber Morgan

If you'd like to continue this discussion in a PM I'd be happy to, because it is interesting but I don't want to hijack this already very interesting thread! Also, it's been discussed on this board before, here:
http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/77916/site_id/1#import and it was ultimately locked, so I don't want this thread to suffer the same fate. Very good reading though.

I read the thread you referenced. No need to open that can of worms again! I think it all boils down to definitions.

Interesting discussion though!

 Quote: howard knauf

Nancy jacoy "If they can sort the scents of very dead humans from that of dead animals it seems targeting live humans vs other animals would be a cakewalk."

In the UK I believe it is illegal to use human remains for dog training. The handlers there use pig products which supposedly are extremely similar to humans during decomposition. It may not be so easy after all.

--Middle text removed -

Now...whether meat eaters have a different odor than vegans, I dont know. I do know that meat eaters have odiferous BMs as opposed to plant eaters. At least in the animal world.

Howard

We actively proof** OFF of pig. It is similar to human and a dog not trained off of it but on human may alert. I think one of the challenging things with HRD is presenting a very broad spectrum of what *is* human scent and training with, and not rewarding, alerts on non-human scent in the area.

Concerning the meat eaters. I think diet may play some small role but not the core scent and we don't train our dogs to locate human feces. There are, and this is not being racist, racial differences in scent - - - blacks have more aporcrine scent glands than whites who have more than orientals. Blacks and whites exude a greasy yellow ear wax while I have read that of orientals is more whitish and gritty. Fear releases pheremones.

Our team has two identical twins who live together, and eat the same food. The dogs are STILL able to differentiate the two. Honestly. We use them with dogs who are already solid in scent discrimination. There is a school that there is an institutional scent among family members but I have heard some say that is surely so and others say not.

EDIT: I have heard some say, impossible, the DNA is the same but.....WE can tell them apart with our eyes. Very subtle differences that took us a while of training with them to know the differences, but we can. Kind of like Konnie with their nose like our eyes.

There is a book, I think Ed sells it, K9 Suspect Discrimation by Schoon and Hawk that is really a good read - I borrowed it from another SAR person and intend to add it to my library after I complete with all the cadaver related stuff I want- It goes into more recent insights on scent theory than syroutouk and describes much about scent lineups.

**the term proof can mean different things to different people. In my case, I mean we set out NON human (for example pig) sources in the training area and do not reward alerts on that material.

John, I cant argue with you there. E-collars and pinch collars are verboten as well. It's not my call.

David, The dog has to have some reasoning (maybe the wrong word) to survive. If it doesn't learn from its' mistakes, its a goner. Think of the coyotes that smell the lemmings/mice under the snow. They have learned to jump on the general area to get them to move so they can pinpoint the movement for the kill. Learned behaviour through experience?

"Our team has two identical twins who live together, and eat the same food. The dogs are STILL able to differentiate the two. Honestly. We use them with dogs who are already solid in scent discrimination. There is a school that there is an institutional scent among family members but I have heard some say that is surely so and others say not. "

In the case of identical twins it's my belief that much more comes into play than the 'identical twin theory.' Do they drive the same car, shop in the same stores, work in an exact and same environment, eat the same foods, wear the same perfume and deodorants, use the same soap etc? If we removed humans (sharing the same race) from their environment and placed them in an exact environment, one with another, where all things were equal, then wouldn't we be back to merely a 'base scent.' Would scent still present differences or would it, in a perfect environment where all things were equal, smell the same in a canine olfactory? If we agree that a base scent does indeed exist, then are those scents that accompany a base scent merely diet and enviroment?

Yes they do to all of the above. Clearly They are in college, take the same classes, live in same apt, eat same food (when they go out they almost always share an entree), don't use perfurme or makeup.

I think other scents may accompany a base scent but the human scent persists as it is decomposed over time. I have heard postulation that is may, indeed, be the decomposition of human DNA that produces the unique scent. Most people I know do not consider human hair alone**(no DNA) to be a particularly good scent item even though it will decompose.

**though it may be presented as part of a matrix with other scents.