A pity about Monty Roberts...I'll have to look into that.

Mr. Frawley,
You and this board are teaching me quite a bit. Thank you.

My first reaction was not to join in because I did not want to sound like a kiss ass to Ed, which I view as the most knowledgeable working dog trainer in the US and owe my life long obsession to as well as two of the best working dogs anyone could ever imagine. But after further consideration I changed my mind. A dog has not fully learned a response until tested under the highest level of distraction. Just because my dog comes to me in my kitchen with no one around surly does not mean he will come to me after seeing a bitch in heat or a protection sleeve. I challenge anyone to show me a dog that has the drives to score very high on a Schutzhund trial or be a good PSD that was trained purly through praise. A bond between a dog and person can NEVER be that close. Before you comment read this post carefully. We are not talking about calling Fito back inside after he pees.

Is anyone else on this board tired of all of the name calling and attacks going back and forth? It seems to me that way too many posts are derisive to one extent or another.
I'm a dog enthusiast and appreciate the opportunity to rationally discuss training techniques and issues. I'm hopeful to meet someone from my area (Orlando, anybody there?) to train with. If I was looking to spew insults and hate there are probably better places on the net to do that. My hope is that we will start treating people with a little more consideration. If someone attacks your post, ignore them. Those types of posts speak more about them than you. Peace everyone.

Vince,

Now I'm going to blast you man! Just kidding. For what it's worth, I think you're absolutely right. It's one thing for the dog to be obedient in one's back yard or living room and another for it to be responsive under stress. My dog and I train with a group of guys and all of our training is done under stress. We utilize height, smoke, gunfire (very carefully), air horns, slippery surfaces and sometimes all at the same time while the dog is being agitated. As well we apply stress to the handler in order that they can learn to communicate with their dog while in the stress of the situation. We do anything and everything we can think of. We've done car jacking and home invasion scenarios. It's no game to us, the security of my family is no game to me. We're very serious and so are our dogs. I'm not saying our way is the only way or the best way, but I am saying it works, or at least it does for us,thus far. Obviously I am curious as to how others train their dogs. I want to learn.

We use a prong collar. We don't use food and toy rewards and we don't use e-collars. However we do use a prong collar to administer corrections. But the reward system is based purely on praise. Vince, if ya make it to Orlando to take the family to see Mickey, I hope you'll let me take ya out for a beer and some chicken wings and then I'll invite you to come out and watch us work. I think we could both learn something.

Sorry for this long post, but if I may, I'd like to make an analogy. I went to another country recently and when I got back my family and friends asked me if I learned a lot about that country. Naturally I said yes. But I added that I also learned a lot about my country too. The experience opened my eyes and I questioned things. Some of the things I saw I liked and some I didn't like, but one thing was a certainty, I knew more than I did before I left.

Vince-

Do not take this as an attack, it is not meant to be one. But by your claim that you and your dog cannot be that close, you have just set yourself a ceiling that isn't necessarily there. You may want to reconsider it.

I can guarantee you the close relationship can be made, and no food or ball is necessary.

>>>>>We use a prong collar. We don't use food and toy rewards and we don't use e-collars. However we do use a prong collar to administer corrections. But the reward system is based purely on praise. >>>

This system can work, and works well for the pet dog who you want to demonstrate submission. It occasionally (rarely actually) even works for the team made up of a genetically superior working dog and working dog handler. It is nice to see. Yet, if the stresses are building in the working dog and the handler is not able to set a foundation and provide a outlet for the stress the handler is being unkind to his/her animal. Some animals handle correction well, some do not. All need a way to alleviate the stress from compulsion. This is why the plethora of techniques designed to diminish the need for compulsion and the emphasis on building a foundation of food or prey items to provide motivation. To wish that the dog was so noble and held us in such esteem and almost like gods that simply petting them makes their world better is ignoring the reality of these simple yet amazingly pliable creatures.

I am going to close this topic. The answers on the original question have been covered.