Sully:

I have to disagree with you for a few reasons. One is the definition of dive. The unconscious reaction to stimuli. I want my dog to jump into drive as soon as he see a helper. The helper becomes the stimuli. You NEVER do obedience work when entering or exiting the field. This kills drive. Having your dog submit after a training session is just that. You want the dog leaving the feild hungry for more. Next time that SOB is mine. This will confuse the hell out of him when he later has to look at the helper as a fighting partner. Nice debate though. Good post!

A lot of this depends on the dog and the level of training the dog has. I have seen a lot of dogs that will "cool off" almost immediately. When they are done, they are done. This doesn't mean that they are any less ready to go as soon as the game/work starts again.

Another part of this is the circumstances that the dog is expected to work in. A dog in a home must be able to go from strong defense of the home to accepting a stranger in a matter of seconds. The dog never knows when a potential opponent will turn into your long lost friend. If the dog cannot make this attitude adjustment then you are going to have to put it up to let anybody in the house, a dog in a crate isn't much help.

Sully,

I have to query some of your comments. First my comments are directed towards a personal protection dog, not a sport dog. You might know about dogs but you know nothing about violence.

You say 'Im always in control' oh really, how about if you've just been knocked out cold and now your assailiant is in the process of sweet talking your dog . And why shouldnt he succeed in doing so, after all in all his previous fights hes ended up having a little pat from his assailiant. So your dog has that indescision that could cost you your life or the dogs. He lets the rappist get close enough and the rapist instead of giving him a nice little pat and words of love rams a ice pick into his skull. After then of course the rapist goes on to giving you some of his 'love' and worse besides.

I dont know a lot about protection dogs but I have seen plenty of human aggression and blood. If you really want a hard core dog you want one that flys into a agressor and keeps on biting unitl one of three things happen. The agressor is dead, the dogs dead, or you give him a out command.

If you think your always going to be there to direct your dog when to bite and when not to you know nothing about human aggression and conflict. Why bother with a dog? After all if you figure that youre always going to be around to direct the dog why not just buy your self a glock. `Part of the advantage of a dog is its ability to function as a seperate unit from yourself. Hes like a fire and forget missile. Ones he's launched you can run in the opposite direction or deal with another attacker.

In personal protection training, as far as I can understand it, the agitator should be there to mimick the behaviour of a person who wants to hurt you or your family, the only contact I want between my dog and such a person is when his jaws get on that bastards throat.

People can absorb enormous damge and keep on fighting. Read about the Miami Massacre when the FBI fronted a couple of crooks, the crooks were shot full of holes but still managed to kill and injure several agents after recieving what should of been lethal man stopping wounds. Your dog might go in deliver a couple of ass tearing bites and then expect to get a friendly pat just like always happens on the training field.

Of course if your training a sport dog, do what you like, just dont kid yourself that a dog trained that way will defend you when the chips are really down.

Sully ,
Another comment on your post, personal protection training is nothing like a boxing match, a boxing macth is a contest between two consenting people.

A protection dog is trained for combat not to play a game where we all back slap at the end and go home good friends. You have massive jail sentences in the US, crooks know that, he knows that hes going to spend a lot of time in jail if hes caught for what ever offence hes committed to trigger the dog intial attack. The dog MUST have the ability and willingness to fight to the death. Other wise you dont have a asset youve got a liability that is giving you a false sense of security.

Vince P. writes: I want my dog to jump into drive as soon as he see a helper. The helper becomes the stimuli. You NEVER do obedience work when entering or exiting the field. This kills drive.
*** Sorry to disagree with you here. I think this is a load of crap. Perhaps for a young inexperienced dog, but not a trained adult. I will address it this way. If you have a dog walking down the street are they "in" drive and hyped..no, they are obedient and under control. Should a threat occur they need to responnd correct? I will address this to PSDs as this is what I do. They don't know when they are going to have to work. They can be relaxed in the car one min and the next be in the middle of a full on bar fight. The handlers that work with me MUST keep the dogs obedient to and from the cars. Even if the dogs know we are doing bitework, they have no right to act like untrained dimmies and drag the handlers to training. It never seems to hurt the bite or drive for the work. I actually find that in some dogs control builds the intensity. Once released form control, the dog now unloads all the controlled energy into the bitework. My second point, if you need to keep a dog that up for bitework you have one of two problems. Either your obed training is poorly done that you have shut down the dog, or the dog doesn't REALLY have the ability to do the bite w/out the pump up. In either case, something is wrong.

Richard Cannon writes:
My guess with PSD is they are never going to accept an aggitator after a bite. They are used in a different situation. If the PSD has made a bite it was for a reason and the person they just bit will not turn into a "friend". A bad guy is a bad guy by definition, not just a mistaken visitor.

**** Sorry yet again. Why would this be a problem? I train about 15 different units and not one of the dogs goes after me when we are not training. I can pet almost all of them. Even after we work, the dogs have no need to be mistrusting or dislike me. I am NOT their friend when training, but when it is over, what have I done that moment to warrant anything BUT acceptance from them? Perhaps a unstable, poorly selected dog can not make the transiton, but MOST have no problem turning it off. I am not saying all of them are like this, but most are. About two months ago I was an instructor for the Los Angeles County Police K-9 Association. There were about 30 or so teams there from So. Cal and even some from as far as TX and OR. None of the dogs had problems being social after we worked them. Work over, your no problem, why not just be a dog. I trained at LAPD one eve and in the middle of working dogs they got a call. We went to the call and the dogs who were just workin were now right next to me getting ready for deployment. They didn't give me a second look. Why would they? They are far from wimp dogs...

Brendan,

Your right, you don't know about training PPD. It is called owner defense, the dog will defend you until called out. They don't get to a point where they figure they are done and quit. The dog does not accept the person unless commanded to do so. You are right you don't want the dog to accept a rapist, pedophile, or any other creep. Don't tell it to. Drop it from a bite to a watch, if they try to leave or reattack the dog bites again. If you are incapacitated the dog doesn't quit. This can be a problem with any trained dog. If the dog won't allow anybody to get to you when you are down, that would include non-threatening assistance personel. If the dog sees everyone as a threat, how are you going to take it with you anywhere, what about visitors?

Josh,

I stand corrected. Like I said it was a guess.

Curtisoms wrote: I personally do not want my dog to just accept handling from the decoy after bite work. I don't believe PSD handlers allow the folks theier dogs just bit to handle and fondle them do they?

***** I want my PSD’s to allow strangers to pet them if I say it’s O.K. But there are many, particularly those with military type trainers, who don’t want anyone touching their dogs at all.

Richard Cannon wrote: My guess with PSD is they are never going to accept an aggitator after a bite. They are used in a different situation. If the PSD has made a bite it was for a reason and the person they just bit will not turn into a "friend". A bad guy is a bad guy by definition, not just a mistaken visitor.

***** I train so that the WILL accept anyone if I say he’s O.K. It makes no difference if he’s just bitten him or not. I want to be the one to make the decision as to who’s a friend and who’s not.

Brendan Powning wrote: If however you are training a personal protection dog then shouldnt its training as closely as possible mirror real life combat?

I cant think of any situation where a rapist, mugger, pedophile, home invader etc. is going to be patting mine or your dog after just being attacked by that same dog. Why then create that situation in training?

***** You’ll find that you’ll meet far more friendly people than muggers, rapists, etc. Having the dog be friendly with the decoy just reminds him that the handler makes the decision as to who is friend or foe. And that decision can change either way at any time.

Vince P. wrote: For a helper to pet a dog after a bite session is crazy. This only confuses a dog in later defense training. I asked Ed once in an email why is this so prevalent and his reaction was that he feels it is a way of a handler showing off and saying, “Look how friendly my dog really is”. A helper should always be neutral off field in sport work. He neither agitates nor praises.

***** I’ve never had a problem with this in training police dogs. As long as the person isn’t a threat or I haven’t given the dog a command to bite him, anyone can pet the dog. I don’t allow it always, but in reality anyone can touch the dog at any time. If you have a dog that won’t permit this or training that doesn’t allow it you’re very limited in what you do.

***** When I was a handler, I used to, and my handlers still do, off leash walk–throughs at shopping malls throughout the city. People, children especially, are always reaching out, without asking first, and touching the dog. Having a dog that is trained to allow this saves many innocent and stupid people from being bitten. Not to mention the lawsuits. Even having a dog on leash won’t stop this. And you can’t stop the stupid people from doing it. I know, I know, I know; there are those who will say that this is just natural selection and that they deserve to be bitten, but the lawyers and courts won’t allow it.

Vince P. wrote: I want my dog to jump into drive as soon as he sees a helper.

***** I’d prefer that my dog was aware of the decoy and wanted to bite him but stayed in control. I’d prefer that he be ready for combat at any time. This doesn’t mean that he walks around constantly loaded up, but that he’s alert and ready.

Vince P. wrote: You NEVER do obedience work when entering or exiting the field. This kills drive.

***** I do OB entering and exiting the field AND in between. I’ll heel the dog within inches of the decoy, in fact, at times brushing the dog against the decoy. Just because someone “bitable” is present doesn’t mean that the dog gets to disregard the fact that I’m still in charge. I think that doing OB builds the drive not kills it. The best way to build a drive is to frustrate it. Look at a dog that watches other dogs biting but is restrained by a “stay” command. Does he want to bite more or does his drive to bite diminish???

Vince P. wrote: Having your dog submit after a training session is just that. You want the dog leaving the feild hungry for more. Next time that SOB is mine. This will confuse the hell out of him when he later has to look at the helper as a fighting partner.

***** I think that perhaps is desirable for a sport dog. But for a PPD or a PSD it’s not as desirable. This, of course, depends on the dog.

***** Anything I’ve written pertains ONLY to a properly selected, trained and handled dog.

New England K-9 - Josh Lewis wrote: Los Angeles County Police K-9 Association.

***** Not to change the direction of this thread but, you fu**in loser, but if you don’t get the name of my Assn., right you won’t be invited back!!! It’s the LACPCA (Los Angeles County Police CANINE Assn.). ROFL.

A now educated Josh Lewis continued: There were about 30 or so teams there from So. Cal and even some from as far as TX and OR. None of the dogs had problems being social after we worked them. Work over, your no problem, why not just be a dog. I trained at LAPD one eve and in the middle of working dogs they got a call. We went to the call and the dogs who were just workin were now right next to me getting ready for deployment. They didn't give me a second look.

***** But that sweet guy in Hollywood sure gave you a couple of second looks!!! LOL (Sorry couldn’t resist).

***** Seriously though folks Josh brings up another point. It’s extremely common if not the “way things are done” in the police world for the decoy to ride in the car with the dog to various training locations during training sessions. If the dog wouldn’t permit this, it would cause problems.

I stand corrected and will never do it again...LOL
I like coming out to the West Coast, had a really good time, so from now on I will use the correct spelling...Only in CA do they not call police cars "cruisers" and the new high tech K-9 SUV's get governed to 96 mph so as not to polute and waste gas...ROFL...

I agree completely with those who feel that the dog should tolerate/accept contact from whom ever the handler decides is o.k.,but I'm talking about the second bite work ends and before you leave the field do you find it desirable for the decoy to give your dog a big kiss on the lips because he did such a good job?

Yes after training is over or during say obedience work the person who plays the bad guy should not have to keep looking over his shoulder wondering if he will get nailed. Then the dog should accept a friendly approach from anyone as it would be a poor PPD if it can't safely be with you at all times.

TO ALL:

I apologize. After 50 posts I assumed most of you got the hint that I do sport work. My dog goes from my kennel to the field. So as to how he would act in the street means absolutely nothing to me. I care about one thing only. Drive. When you see the helper you better go into drive. Does this mean I let my dog run around the field like a lunatic? No. DRIVE–COMPULSION-DRIVE is the key. If you disagree with this. You have every right. And I would love to discuss it further. But in reality, it’s just one less dog I have to worry about.