I agree with Red's view on this, it's my view as well. Where Red wrote "What's the purpose of training your dog? Competitive training at the cost of real world scenarios or a well behaved responsive dog the occasionally breaks the stay when something exceptional happens?", personally I would go with the latter.

I would want my dog to break the stay in all 3 of the above scenarios that Judy mentioned - real life scenarios that warrant the stay being broken IMO.

Exactly..!

My last post was meant to be humorous but I guess that's a little difficult to portray in print. I thought all the smileys would've helped though.

Leave it to a man to put something so, so black and white !

Preference is only one half of it. If that's all I wanted to consider, then yes, I'd be happy with his, "is she ok?" tendency.

However, preferences aside, if I allow him to come running to my aid, does that make the potential for future failings (i.e. cat across the street) on his part greater?

Or are these scenarios really clearly different to him? That spider scared the crap out of me (as did my son in all black) so there surely was some change in me that my dog had to have noticed.

I run thru training w/him everyday. So I'd like to think I'm not confusing him but who's to say? You guys all mention fear, chemicals, tone of voice (i.e. panicked) as being clear to them. So this would make me think, no, he wouldn't be confused.

I would feel better if I heard from all of you (including you Red) tell me no, you don't think there's a problem.

 Quote: Red Thomas

A dog trained for competition is like a rail, it's great tool for going straight, fast, and only a quarter mile; but it would suck if you wanted to go to the store for a loaf of bread.

What's the purpose of training your dog? Competitive training at the cost of real world scenarios or a well behaved responsive dog the occasionally breaks the stay when something exceptional happens?

...I don't understand what you mean by going to the store for a loaf of bread?

One thing I try never to do is use the word stay without there being a complete picture in my head of the total exercise. I set you up, I tell you to stay, I return and release...I don't put my dog in a stay in the middle of baking cookies and leave the room for 10 minutes. (and I'm not saying that was what the OP did - just using that as an example).

Very rarely do I use stay in 'the real world' - well, except to take a photograph of my dogs It's a training exercise that is specifically practiced and then used in competition.

If I was in the middle of practicing and the cat walked across the floor, the doorbell rang, the pipes burst he should not break. If someone snuck up behind me with a gun...then I'm practicing in the wrong place!

Judy,

I don't think there is a probelm. How's that?

When training a behavior the dog is taught what to do (e.g. sit), when that behavior is proofed the dog is taught what not to do (i.e. get up as a cat runs by). But you have to work up to the cat, if the dog is not ready then training gets backed up.

 Quote:

You guys all mention... chemicals, tone of voice (i.e. panicked) as being clear to them.

When trained to be (fear is a different story).

The scenarios are clearly different but until he is trained, the way he should respond is not so clear.

Gunnar breaking his stay for a cat across the street is totally different.
He was reacting (breaking the stay) because he sensed something was up due to your voice changing and you screamed.
Now unless you are afraid of the cat and you start to scream...thats different. But if he breaks a stay due to a cat....the does require the correction.
The only way I think he'll be confused is if aren't consistent and correct him where other times you didn't.
EX: You have him on a downstay in the kitchen, you and your friends are laughing and joking around...you find something particularily funny and laugh loudly...he might not be able to perceive that everythings fine with you because he's reacting to the change in your voice & tone. A loud laugh may sound like a yelp or distress to him and he breaks the stay. To me, I wouldn't think it would be fair to correct him then, since I am not sure he can make out the difference. IMO. Someone else may have a different thought.
But, cat across the street walks by and he breaks...that I would still correct for.
Now that I am writing this though, I do understand your thinking. Can Gunnar differentiate between going to investigate the cat and going to investigate the commotion you're making?
Does he KNOW the difference and if you do correct him for the cat instance will he be thinking in his head..."wait a minute, how come im getting corrected? I broke the stay before and nothing happened."

 Quote: lee hanrahan

Very rarely do I use stay in 'the real world' - well, except to take a photograph of my dogs It's a training exercise that is specifically practiced and then used in competition.

What do you use in the real world as you say? How do you get them to stop and stay still?

Gunnar's good at not breaking the command wily nily but does give himself some leeway and I guess that's why I'm posting my question. If he was dead-on accurate every time but those that I mentioned in my original post, I'd have never posted.

1) He thinks it's OK to go from a sit/stay to a down/stay on his own.
2) If I put him in a sit/stay at my feet in my front yard and walk away from him to greet a stranger coming up our walk, or someone he knows and likes, he'd possibly get up to follow me. In this instance, I'd have to say "Stay" w/hand motions and a second "Stay" BEFORE walking away from him to get him to stay. I don't think I should have to do this but that's my point. He's not perfect in the Stay category.

Those are the types of mistakes he makes. And not always. He's also astounding at stay half the time too. Like I said, he gives himself leeway .

And, no, I never let him get away with it.

So, due to this, I'm still not sure if allowing the spider moments would confuse him or not .

Wendy, it's eery how smart he is here. It started when he was a puppy and he hasn't changed. Each and everytime he ran to me was when something scary happened to me. Or the smoke in the kitchen. That happened more than once but we don't need to talk about that, do we ?

The times he 'breaks' the stay on his own is always something that is like in my previous post. Something that is really, really hard for him to sit for (stranger walking up the walk) or his casual change of position from my command of a sit/stay to his sending me a memo telling me it's now going to be a down/stay .

FWIW, I never leave him in a stay for more than 1-2 minutes while away from him.

And I ALWAYS correct him if he changes position on me. Or anytime he breaks the stay (except again for the scary moments).

Just yesterday he was in a down stay, we were practicing, and he got up out of nowhere. I was like, ! So I took his collar and popped it back to the place he was lying and was saying "stay" the whole way. His pops are like negative 1, he's a soft dog, as you know Wendy. Anyway, he went back into the down and was about to throw up lying down . That's why he broke the stay - he had to throw up and I corrected him for it . I felt like Cruella Deville. Of course when I saw him start to heave I released him but I had already corrected the poor dog . I think he still loves me but I'm not sure .

 Quote: judy troiano

What do you use in the real world as you say? How do you get them to stop and stay still?

I guess I don't If I left him in a stay to greet someone it would most likely be in a practice or training situation. Especially since I am such a stickler for safety. That's why I don't understand the buying bread quote... My dog would never be left in a stay outside a store (not sure if that's what they meant or not)

I have 2 other GSDs at home and we don't do much "staying" as a group as their level of training is not all the same and I don't tend to practice much formal obedience in the house.

I find it really interesting if/when something out of the ordinary happens during a stay and their reaction. We practice as a group on Sundays and if someone enters the hall, knocks something over, child screams I like to watch my dog's reaction as neither of us are expecting it so it's different then a planned distraction - sometimes it's so quiet you can hear a pin drop!

That reminds me of last summer on the way home from the beach and my older male started whining (we were almost home). I was getting annoyed and then my bitch started to howl! All of a sudden he had diareaha all over the back of the SUV! Poor thing was telling us to pull over but we just weren't listening!