Quote: kristel smart

it's required for competition,

There's more than one way to skin a cat.... I do both Schutzhund and AKC Obedience. When I train a new command, I give it once, then while the dog is doing the correct thing, I may say "Good (whatever) in a "praise" voice to strengthen the association with the action and the word while not actually repeating the command itself. So he knows, for example "Sitz" means "Sitz until I tell you otherwise", whereas "Good sitz (or whatever)" means "You're doing the right thing - keep doing it." To comply with the AKC rules: "When the judge gives the order, the handlers will command and/or signal their dogs to sit, if they are not already sitting. On further order to “Leave your dogs,” the handlers will give a command and/or signal to stay..." all I do is give a quiet "Good sitz" or "Good platz" for the second required command. Another option, I suppose, is to give a meaningless hand signal that would look like a command to everyone except the dog.

Being that one is an ogre if they haven't yet caught on to this, how you say, "marker training", and since the "mark" is also the release, it's the easiest thing in the world to disregard the additional cue for a stay.

As Anita said, I've been told I need to give a "stay" in FR, but I'll just mumble "bleib" or something when the time comes. He doesn't know what it means, so it probably can't hurt.

Very interesting thread!

Because I originally went to the AKC (CKC here) training clubs, I was always taught to use a stay command.

I am considering phasing out the "stay" after all the reading I've done on this website and board though...

So far, the main advantage I've noticed in training my pup (now 11 months) with the stay is that I can give him an indication of what the exercise is going to be.
For example, I don't ever let him break a sit or down until I release. However, if I expect a long sit or a long down, I give a stay command.

When I say "stay" he relaxes more into the position (because he knows it's going to be a while before he's released) whereas if I just say "sit" or "down", he'll hold the position but is "on the edge" waiting for a quick follow up command or release.

It's certainly been a very useful training tool. I like to cue my dogs for each exercise so they have an idea what's coming next - it increases their chances of success

Like if my dog is in a sit-stay at a distance and I'm about to tell him to "down", I often glance very quickly to the ground. That way my pup knows that a "down" is coming, and not a "come".

Because he's so freaking excitable, I found that these subtle cues have been useful in teaching him new exercises or in adding distance.

I did phase out the "down" cue of looking to the ground before giving the command and don't use that anymore, but his learning phase went WAY quicker (= far less corrections for breaking) with the cue
By the way, I got this whole "cueing the dog" idea from Tom Rose in the Leerburg "Competition Heeling" DVD. When heeling with a dog, he quickly turns his head in the direction he's about to turn before each turn so the dog knows what to expect.
That type of cue is "allowed" in competition (as Tom said, "You're allowed to look where you're going" hehe).
I just developed my own cues (as subtle as possible) for other exercises and so far it's really increased my pup's success in learning!

I guess I've been using the stay in the same way (not so subtle though!)... from what you guys have said, it sounds like I should also phase out the stay command, is that right?

(Maybe I should just develop a more subtle cue for the stay... like blinking... or sneezing... lol).

Ever since a kid, I've trained sit with a separate stay, down with a separate stay, stand with a separate stay. I did so because I wanted the dog to know the position to hold in the 'stay'. Now I want to phase out the stay because it doesn't make sense to me anymore, other than how Mike Arnold mentioned, which is a stay 'in place' but not required to maintain a certain position.

Only problem is the 'stay' word is indelibly inscribed into my training vocabulary and I'm driving myself nuts trying to keep my mouth from uttering the word after a sit or whatever. However, I've often been using a hand signal for stay, so if I can just keep my mouth shut and use my hand, I should have it mastered soon, but am not holding out any real hope for me.

My pup seems to know more than me , because when I am sometimes successful in keeping my mouth shut and not utter 'stay', he keeps the 'sit' or whatever, on his own as if knowing that's the right way to respond to the command, even without a hand signal.

Woe is me, my dog is smarter than me, but I'm trying to catch up.

Alex,

I posted something a while back that is a bit similar to your question. The majority thought a stay command was unnecessary...sit means sit...but a clear release command was essential. And that's where I went wrong...I never taught a release.

So I started back inside the house putting my pup in a sit, waiting a few seconds, then releasing him with "OK". I sometimes enforce the stay with a hand signal (hand out like a traffic cop) when we're increasing the time he has to sit/stay.

I found teaching the release command was a lot easier then teaching stay command and I got fairly quick results.

I started off using "stay" because I was taught that in a basic OB class. After reading here I decided it was not needed. Sit means sit until I say something else. Very easy to phase it out. I use OK as the release and wish I would have used something else like "free" as sometimes OK comes out of my mouth to easy as it is a common phrase. Like using fooey instead of NO.

I use wait to keep the dogs from jumping out of the car. Or going through doors. It means stay where you are but I don't care about what position you are in.

As mentioned before. Not using the stay command makes training down and sit in motion much easier.

Good thread
Bob

Forgot to add. If you use sit means sit until released in the house don't forget to release before you leave the room. It's easy to forget when you get distracted. I have done that a couple of times and felt bad when I got back and found my dog still sitting in the kitchen.
Bob

Thanks for everyone's posts. I also thought it would be easier and better to not add "stay". My dog knows to keep put when certain things are expected. Examples are when I am feeding her, I put her in a sit and she will not break it until her bowl is on the floor and I have released her. Another is, while working on "come", I put her in a sit or down (which I will change) and stay put until I recall. All other times she will sit & down but release on her own & I never corrected. One thing I can think of that might be a problem is, if someone comes over and they ask for a momentary sit & not release her (so she releases herself), that is going to screw up our training right? Do I just flat out tell a friend or family, "don't give my dog any commands"?

Don't let others give your dog commands. They should only come from you. Absolutely don't feel guilty about telling them not to command your dog.