Quote: Adam Dorn

Anybody here have a site that does reccommend low and loose??

Not a one.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

 Quote: Adam Dorn

Anybody here have a site that does reccommend low and loose??

Not a one.

Gosh darn it! As a matter of fact, when I first read this thread yesterday I remembered reading a link posted on this forum not too long ago, and it DID say low (if not particularly loose). Naturally, I can't find the post (and yes, I tried the Search function, which by the way is a creation of the Evil One), but I did recall enough of what I'd read to do a Google and found the same article, but not on the same site. And of course the new site I found it on ( http://dogtraininglive.com/?cat=2 gives absolutely NO CLUE as to who wrote it . I can't come up with the original site that was linked to, but I would have bet a case of raw chicken necks that it was someone like Connie or Angelique who made the original post and highly recommended the author. So, anyone else remember it? Here's the part I remembered so vividly:

When properly fitted, the prong collar should be at roughly the mid-way point on the dog’s neck, with the chain portion flat, not sagging. Beware those who recommend fitting a prong collar (or any collar) up high, near the dog’s ears - their intention is to cause pain by putting the collar in this nerve rich, muscle poor area of great sensitivity.

I followed your link, and the text of one of those topics does look familiar to me.

Good for you for seeing that one line, because if I posted a link to that author, I missed that line.

But "made the original post and highly recommended the author" .... I don't recall recommending any authors here recently.

But then, I barely recall yesterday.

Well, if I could recall something - anything - about the thread I found that link in, that would help, too. I'm hoping someone else has a better memory than the two of us....

Okay, this isn't the one I remembered (I also recall the author was a woman, and she talked about in her day, they were called training collars - does that help anyone?), but I found another site that recommends low and loose: http://www.johnknowsdogs.com/prong-collar-use.htm

(Note: I pass no judgement on the merits of his arguement. I'm merely responding to the "are there any sites..." challenge )

Also, note he questions the existence of the German study that showed the results of 50 dogs trained with prongs and 50 with choke collars. Would be good to know if this is another myth that has become fact through retelling. Has anyone ever seen the actual study? http://listserv.vt.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0605&L=vetlib-l&P=2890

I'm a convert to prong collars because I've seen their effectiveness, and heard far too many dogs wheezing and gagging on choke or flat collars. But do we really have a scientific basis for fitting them in a particular way, or proving they don't cause trachea damage? I don't know.

I also read somewhere else that no one has been able to find the source of the study regarding the prong trachea damage vs the choke chain trachea damage.

What I don't agree with on his explanation of prong collar use is, where he says to "slip the prong over the dogs head assuring proper fitment". If a prong was meant to be slipped over the head, to my opinion, it would never be possible to remove links or open the prong by pinching a link.

 Quote:

I'm a convert to prong collars because I've seen their effectiveness, and heard far too many dogs wheezing and gagging on choke or flat collars. But do we really have a scientific basis for fitting them in a particular way, or proving they don't cause trachea damage? I don't know.

I've looked hard for the source on the elusive German prong collar study. It seems that a trainer "invented" it for a seminar or that the story has been since before then.

I'm not sure science is needed. Put both collars on your neck and try them out. I mean - somebody hold the leash or the collar and you put against it, like a dog on a leash. That's about as scientific as I get (Besides recreating the "canteloupe" experiment!)

 Quote: Adam Dorn

Anybody here have a site that does reccommend low and loose??

Found it!!! The author was Suzanne Clothier: http://www.flyingdogpress.com/prong.html

 Quote: AnitaGard

Well, if I could recall something - anything - about the thread I found that link in, that would help, too. I'm hoping someone else has a better memory than the two of us....

Anita, here's the article, by Suzanne Clothier on her website: http://www.flyingdogpress.com/prong.html

The quote you posted is about 7 paragraphs up from the bottom of the page.

I found her website many months ago and read all her articles avidly. I like her articles very much and appreciate her wisdom, and have to admit when I first read that particular statement she wrote, it gave me pause since I'd never used a prong on any dog before until Lear. I weighed that statement against all her excellent articles. The conclusion I came up with is that she's right about the area under the jaw being nerve rich and muscle poor, but probably wrong about people recommending that area because they wish to cause pain to the dog. Because the area is nerve rich, I'm careful with my corrections. Very careful. A small pop with the collar in that area does the trick, at least with my dog. So yes, it's an area of great control and I can't see a reason (at least with Lear) for every giving a level 10 when the collar is placed there.

After I read that article I did put the collar down lower, but the corrections needed to be harder and were basically ignored. So to me it's a trade off. Harder correction down lower or minute correction up higher. I chose up higher with very low level corrections.

Edited by Sandy Moore (05/03/2007 05:27 AM)
Edit reason: Anita and I were posting at the same time

"Edited by Sandy Moore ( 1 minute 19 seconds ago)
Edit Reason: Anita and I were posting at the same time "

Sandy, you and I need a life. It's 6 in the morning here!

Glad you remembered it, too. I KNEW I wasn't hallucinating!