Chris,

Great explanation (and use of photos too!) now here is my question :-D

I have hear the term fight drive tossed around on here by Ed and a few other people (you too maybe? sorry bad memory) can you explain?

Another question is how would you test your dogs civil drive besides muzzel attacks and hidden sleeves (im sorry but hidden sleeves are a joke, well the ones i have seen are way to easy for the dog to see)? or are these the only two ways a you can actualy test it (with out getting bite that is)

Mike,
Here is a great article by Ed that explains fight drive. It's a mixture of prey and defense, but morphs into it's own drive, http://www.leerburg.com/qaprot.htm#fight

As for the muzzle fights, and the hidden sleeves. They are great tests. but what happens is people usually don't execute them correctly and then the exercises loose their purpose.
If all you do is muzzle hits, and never give the dog slipped muzzle bites IMO the dog becomes conditioned to just hit in the muzzle, and it's almost to the point of an Obedience exercise, not the dog is hitting in the muzzle because he really thinks he may get a bite. I think this happens with alot of BR dogs even if they would bite for real or not, I think the dog learns to go through the motions. You can teach a non civil dog to hit in a muzzle.

Also, on the hidden sleeves. I have one that is VERY discreet, and doesn't show a nice buldge looking like a sleeve. However that IMO is only one part of it, a good true hidden sleeve. The other part is how the decoy works in it. Most inexperienced decoys will be paranoid about only wearing a hidden sleeve, and therefore will consistantly be presenting the sleeve just like they do with a outer wear training sleeve.
I like to wear shorts and as small a shirt as possible while still concealing the sleeve or it's profile. I take bites with the hidden sleeve, but move the sleeve into position or "present" the hidden sleeve, only once the dog has committed to the bite. This keeps it a little more real. Also, I don't use or advocate traditional hidden sleeves that feel like Jute material or standard sleeve material. I also want a shirt as small as possible, so that when the dog bites, he's not getting a mouth full of 6XXX sweat shirt cotton in his mouth, but instead will feel the hard sleeve underneath, and it feels very different to him than the sleeve he's use to. A live bite won't feel like the sleeve he's use to either, nor will a suspect present him an arm like in training. A decoy has to be talented and quick and has to be able to read dogs. Also there are hidden tactical suits. that look very low profile, and HURT LIKE HELL when you take a bite, but you can wear these under a pair of jeans. I think these are the best methods shy of paying a crackhead to take live bites, but they must be done correctly or you loose their value quickly.

 Quote: Chris Duhon

What Betty said is a great definition, but to I'll go a step further and say, the display of aggression towards an un-equipped person/helper/decoy triggered by their defense or fight drives.

~CHRIS DUHON

Much better simple explanation Chris! Off topic but how is life treating you?

Good read Chris! Ever get to Miami? Nice web page also. I may need to drive up there and make a visit!




Sgt Matt

 Quote: chris duhon

Mike,
Here is a great article by Ed that explains fight drive. It's a mixture of prey and defense, but morphs into it's own drive, http://www.leerburg.com/qaprot.htm#fight

As for the muzzle fights, and the hidden sleeves. They are great tests. but what happens is people usually don't execute them correctly and then the exercises loose their purpose.
If all you do is muzzle hits, and never give the dog slipped muzzle bites IMO the dog becomes conditioned to just hit in the muzzle, and it's almost to the point of an Obedience exercise, not the dog is hitting in the muzzle because he really thinks he may get a bite. I think this happens with alot of BR dogs even if they would bite for real or not, I think the dog learns to go through the motions. You can teach a non civil dog to hit in a muzzle.

Also, on the hidden sleeves. I have one that is VERY discreet, and doesn't show a nice buldge looking like a sleeve. However that IMO is only one part of it, a good true hidden sleeve. The other part is how the decoy works in it. Most inexperienced decoys will be paranoid about only wearing a hidden sleeve, and therefore will consistantly be presenting the sleeve just like they do with a outer wear training sleeve.
I like to wear shorts and as small a shirt as possible while still concealing the sleeve or it's profile. I take bites with the hidden sleeve, but move the sleeve into position or "present" the hidden sleeve, only once the dog has committed to the bite. This keeps it a little more real. Also, I don't use or advocate traditional hidden sleeves that feel like Jute material or standard sleeve material. I also want a shirt as small as possible, so that when the dog bites, he's not getting a mouth full of 6XXX sweat shirt cotton in his mouth, but instead will feel the hard sleeve underneath, and it feels very different to him than the sleeve he's use to. A live bite won't feel like the sleeve he's use to either, nor will a suspect present him an arm like in training. A decoy has to be talented and quick and has to be able to read dogs. Also there are hidden tactical suits. that look very low profile, and HURT LIKE HELL when you take a bite, but you can wear these under a pair of jeans. I think these are the best methods shy of paying a crackhead to take live bites, but they must be done correctly or you loose their value quickly.

OK honestly i tryed editing your reply down a bit but everything you said was useful.

First Off thanks for the Link. Second i can see what your saying about giving the dog a reward bite after all the muzzle attacks, haven't really given that much thought but have always given my dog a reward bite anyhow. I haven't seen a great hidden sleeve but i did forget to say that we do have one in Vicenza that has a bend in it and is by far the best one i used or have seen. I see your point about wanting the dog to bite on to the actual sleeve and not the clothing, On the other hand i think it would be good for the dog to be completly unaware of the sleeve every now and then. (what can i say, i worry about the dog being equipment oriented) Then again if you did it at night then that would help a lot... Now the "hidden tactical suits" sounds great, not something to put on all the time but once a week or so. Anyhow thanks for the good info.

I've got a couple questions for you, Chris...

 Quote:

I think these are the best methods shy of paying a crackhead to take live bites, but they must be done correctly or you loose their value quickly.

How do you "correctly" get a crackhead to take a bite so as not to loose the training value??

Seriously, what is a "slipped muzzle bite"? Probably exactly what it sounds like, right? But I just want to be sure. And then how do you set up for this (the muzzle buckles I mean) just loosen them off a little.

Now Howard mentioned that a dog being stressed in defense can pretty well be guaranteed to shift into prey when the sleeve is presented, so how do you avoid getting the dog locked into prey? Is the point of defensive drive training not to have the dog work through the stress and get his bite while under that stress? Based on what you wrote I don't see how this is being accomplised, can you break it down a bit further? I'm a simple man I need simple steps.

"Now Howard mentioned that a dog being stressed in defense can pretty well be guaranteed to shift into prey when the sleeve is presented, so how do you avoid getting the dog locked into prey?"

Not quite what I said...or meant. I said that the example Chris gave may appear to be putting the dog into defense but in fact the dog was in prey. As Chris already said, you can put the dog into defense with equipment but you wont get the civil nature out of a dog with the same equipment, only prey or defense.

As far as slipped muzzle bites...I have a 4 inch leather tag line on the muzzle at the top which is looped around the strap that goes behind the dog's ears. When the decoy has a great ground fight going with the dog, the decoy can reach up and pull the muzzle off with the strap. The dog is free to bite at will.

This teaches the dog that if he fights hard enough that damn basket will come off his face and he gets to tear into the decoy. This can be dangerous so everyone involved has to have their heads out of their arse to prevent injury.

Howard

 Quote:

The mere fact that a sleeve is present, as well as the movement required to pop the whip, actually puts an already bite trained dog into prey.

Howard, this is the statement I was refering to. (I still haven't figured out how to quote two different posters in one reply.) But you're right... not quite what you said; my question still stands though. I don't want to turn this thread onto a different topic and I know that defensive training techniques are not particularly smiled upon when discussed on open threads, so perhaps someone could PM me?

I can't figure out how to do a single quote, as evidence above. :-(

 Quote: Howard Knauf

As far as slipped muzzle bites...I have a 4 inch leather tag line on the muzzle at the top which is looped around the strap that goes behind the dog's ears. When the decoy has a great ground fight going with the dog, the decoy can reach up and pull the muzzle off with the strap. The dog is free to bite at will.

Howard

Howard, I would love to see a photo of how you have this rigged up. I take it the decoy has a sleeve or suit on if he is sliping the muzzle :-D

How i usaly run it is send him on a off leash bite have him fighting the decoy and then i will run up grab him and hold him while the decoy makes a run for it and picks up a sleeve thats been hidden (behind the van or something like that)so that way he is still in drive and everything happens fast (or so i try)