Well -- thanks so much for all the advice!! We will find a correct kibble and start taking them off the Science Diet. It is frustrating that the Vets push something that so many of you find to be bad for them. I'd like to think my vet has my puppies best health at heart, but the bottom line always seems to win out -- so discouraging. Thanks again -- this site has been so helpful since I am a bit of a newbie dealing with puppies -- especially two. My best to all, Kristen Ryan

 Quote: kristen ryan

Well -- thanks so much for all the advice!! We will find a correct kibble and start taking them off the Science Diet. It is frustrating that the Vets push something that so many of you find to be bad for them. I'd like to think my vet has my puppies best health at heart, but the bottom line always seems to win out -- so discouraging. Thanks again -- this site has been so helpful since I am a bit of a newbie dealing with puppies -- especially two. My best to all, Kristen Ryan

Your vet's chances of having had nutrition classes that were not funded in part (or fully) by Hills are slim. His chances of belonging to a vet organization that doesn't rely to a great degree on contributions from "corporate sponsors" like Hills and the pharmaceutical houses are also not very good.

I'm cynical about the motive for continuing to push that food after the flood of information about pet foods in general that resulted from the tragic recall, but I do believe that there are vets who still trust what they learned in school (if they even had companion animal nutrition credits) and who still believe the propaganda in the glossy brochures from the salespeople. (And to them, the big profit margin might seem like a win-win situation. )

Just as with our own health, if we do not accept responsibility for keeping up with "the other side" of the "research" presented by drug companies and the rest of the medical industry, then we are giving our health management to that industry.

So I say: Good for you, that you asked and want to learn!

Kristian, as Connie said most vets know little or nothing about nutrition. If you're in the U.S. check out the AHVMA (American Holistic Vet. Assn.) website. You may be able to find a holistic vet in your area who has studied canine nutrition and who can give you some choices about feeding your dog.

I feed Orijen puppy food for large breeds to my pups. They look great, don't need an enormous amount of food to give them decent nutrition and is one I recommend. It's 70% animal protein and 30% fruits and vegetables. I have German Shepherds, by the way.
And about the crate thing, get them. You'll save yourself a lot of headache and damage to your home.

To me, the prey diet or raw diet that my dog is on is just as easy and CHEAPER than high quality or even crappy quality kibble. I can buy chicken quarters for .39 a lbs here in Houston. I also give raw eggs, chicken and beef livers, cold water fish occasionally, omega 3 oils, and any on-sale meat cuts that fall within my buying choices. She also gets a veggie/fruit glop that I blend with organic kelp purchased from here at Leerburg a few days a week...about a cup when I give it to her.

Raw or Prey diet is easy...don't be intimidated

It's tough on dog owners when commercials tell them to feed this, vets tell them to feed that, etc. Good for you for asking. I've always fed my Dobes Innova and haven't had any problems....BUT; I am looking into the raw diet that many on this site recommend and it really is far superior to any kibble that can be purchased. If you aren't ready to feed raw, you may want to consider a high-grade kibble while researching raw. The costs are pretty comparable, with raw being more cost-effective in the long-run because it eliminates vet visits for things like teeth-cleaning/allergies. I travel a bit and was a little worried about how my animal-care person would handle the raw meals; but that was easily solved by Ziplock bags. My only hang-up at this point is finding a meat-freezer so I can buy in bulk (cheaper, but not neccessary, esp. if you have small dogs). I can't say enough good about what I've read here, and what my own research has turned up re: the raw diet, coming from someone who is new to the idea. I'm curious to compare my young Dobe's health and vitality on a raw diet vs my previous Dobes, and have just about convinced my business partner that raw is the way to go with our breeding dogs/puppies too.

I agree with everyone. Raw may seem a bit intimidating at first, but it's not that hard. Even I'M doing it, and I am horrible in the kitchen Like others said, at least get your Spaniels off the science diet. I used to feed Canidae, and I'm sure it's less for that excellent kibble than what you are paying now for sd.

anytime you see "meal" in the first two or three ingredients STAY AWAY from it.

not only that, but your dog will require more water to digest the kibble and its' digestive tract will operate slower, too. Brenna's stool is much smaller and goes thru her in just a few hours...the couple of times I've had to feed her either kibble or dehydrated food it took her a full day to go thru her and it definitely messed up her digestive tract for days after.

raw or prey diet for us has been just great...I buy a 10lbs bag of chicken quarters, split it into two 5lbs bags, freeze one and keep the other in the fridge until I'm out...carrots and apples keep quite well in the fridge and the additional veggies I give her I use pretty quickly:celery, spinach, etc...omega 3, eggs, and organic kelp I use in small quantities anyway, so no worries about stuff going bad before I can use it...

I've shared this before, but the first time I took Brenna to the Vet I got the speech about raw when she found out that's what I was doing...she also has about 300lbs of Science Diet in her lobby PetSmart and all the others are just like grocery stores...they charge the pet food makers money to display, not just sell, their kibbles/snacks/etc on their floors. That should tell you something

I'm not saying there aren't good dry dog foods, Honest Kitchen sold here on Leerburg makes a good kibble and there's a website that rates all of the dry foods somewhere(can't find it now)based upon ingredients...there are definitely good ones and VERY BAD ones! Just do your homework and make a decision you're comfortable with in the end...and we'll see you eventually at the meat counter at the grocer's

 Quote: mike morrison

anytime you see "meal" in the first two or three ingredients STAY AWAY from it.

...Honest Kitchen sold here on Leerburg makes a good kibble

My friend Mr. Morrison...I gotta pick on you for a minute here:
The word "meal" is not, in itself, a bad thing. If it's corn meal, well, then sure. Stay away from it. If it's chicken meal, it simply means that the water has been removed. So, pay attention to the first few ingredients in a kibble. Often times the ones that have chicken or turkey as their first ingredient and then go to other things like grains or vegs may SEEM like great foods, BUT, they're in fact not as good as one with, say, chicken meal as the first ingredient, chicken as the second, chicken fat as the third, etc.

EX:WILD & NATURAL DRY™

Ingredients: Chicken Meal, Fresh Chicken, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), Salmon Meal...

Purina Pro Plan dog "food"
Ingredients:
Turkey, brewers rice, pearled barley, chicken meal (natural source of glucosamine), corn gluten meal, oat meal

Note that they saved any meat with substance for the 3rd ingredient...after squeezing 2 grains in there, and followed it up with our friend corn gluten meal.

Iams Large Breed:
Chicken, Corn Meal, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Chicken By-Product Meal (Natural source of Glucosamine), Ground Whole Grain Barley, Fish Meal, Dried Beet Pulp

So...see what I mean?

And the Honest Kitchen does not make a kibble. It's a dehydrated raw that comes in several formulations, both with and without grains (Force and Embark are respectively chicken and turkey w/no grains). Preference is a mixer for raw meat, as it contains none.

Just wanted to make a couple things clear for the newbies who might read this. THK is great food, but it's not a kibble.

Also, to add to what Jenni said (which is absolutely right!), even if you see "Chicken meal" or "Turkey meal" as the first ingredient, it doesn't necessarily mean, that's the major ingredient by weight (which is how the ingredients are supposedly listed). You can have the meat meal first, then followed by 3 or 4 grains, which combined would equal a bigger amount of grains in the kibble. Misleading, very misleading.