Will,

What I am saying is if you can't control your dog on leash what makes you think he is going to listen to you off leash, especially around stress and distractions. I feel if you don't have a strong foundation of basic obedience, these are your building blocks that lead up to teaching bitework. IMO if you cant control your dog in basic obedience..sit, down, stay, come you have no business venturing into bitework & protection, without having this very basic training. So maybe I am showing inexperience in this field, but I feel very strongly that a dog should not be taught bitework if he is not first trained in obedience only. It sounds like you guys just go straight into bitework & agitation. Am I off the mark here?

 Quote: Michael West

Betty,

*shakes head* gotcha, thats what i thought it was, just a different use of terms.

Terminology bites me every time!

You should see how confused I can make my dogs some days!

Lisa
I'm getting confused. Have you trained a dog in protection or any of the sports?

 Quote: lisa harrison

I feel if you don't have a strong foundation of basic obedience, these are your building blocks that lead up to teaching bitework. IMO if you cant control your dog in basic obedience..sit, down, stay, come you have no business venturing into bitework & protection, without having this very basic training. So maybe I am showing inexperience in this field, but I feel very strongly that a dog should not be taught bitework if he is not first trained in obedience only. It sounds like you guys just go straight into bitework & agitation.

One thing jumped out at me as a difference in thinking, perhaps...

Dogs are not "taught" to bite. Dogs know how to bite from day one. They're dogs, and all dogs bite. What a PPD trainer does is teach/show a dog WHEN it is ok to bite...and when not. I think it's dangerously false security to think that b/c your dog has good OB, it won't bite, or that b/c his OB is sound, he won't bite inappropriately. When you say that PPD trainers are going "straight to bitework and agitation" it sounds as if you think that we're teaching them something they otherwise wouldn't know. That's my bone to pick with your post.

I have excellent control on my dog, both in normal OB and bitework. I did not have to teach him how to bite...I had to teach him when not to bite, and when to bite.

P.S. The OB you're talking about here (sit, down, stay,etc.) is EXTREMELY basic, and I'd be shocked if anyone training PPDs here didn't have that on their dogs. What the pet world views as OB and what we do are vastly different things.

I just went through both view points on training.

I have a 7 month old GSD. His drive was very high as a young puppy. The one Schutzhund club I belong too was big on obedience for puppies. I seen his drive deminish over the 3 months I was there, to the point were he didn't want the tug at all. In fairness he was also teething for a while during that time.

I joined another club and they evaluated him and said that we should only work on building drive. So that's what we are currently doing. He really enjoys it and his desire for working is very high. He now chases and bites the tug very intently. His obedience is more reliable now as well, since I don't use commands very much these days. But when I do he useally listens.

So I'd say a lot depends on the dog and breed. Young GSD's can lose drive easly, were Mal's not so much from what I've seen.
For a young dog I'd say use his drive as a guide. If the drive deminishes let up on OB. It seems to be much more important to have drive in a young dog than OB, as OB can be introduced later.

Ed,
You are responsible for your actions, don't try to blame "a Club" for your dogs drives.You are the one that suppressed your dog's drive not the obedience.A dog that has good drives WILL chase a rag no matter how much OB it has, so your excuse is ridiculous.You are the one who needs to get into "drive".Your dog has show line drives and always will, stop blaming others.....

Jenni:
"What the pet world views as OB and what we do are vastly different things."


As usual, Jenn hits a home run!!

Thanks, Will.

I keep noticing that it seems like pet owners and pet trainers think we're all crazy (and we are, but this isn't why :grin for doing what we do with our dogs (ya know, makin' em mean, lol), but they're AMAZED when they see the control and OB. It apparently has never occurred to them that such a high level of OB/control can be achieved by a positive, rewarding, working experience. You cannot achieve this at a PetSmart/Co 6wk training course, so naturally, they're a bit skeptical about the introduction of bitework.

Anyway, this thread seems to be wandering, and I'm not helping, but I just wanted to point out a common line of thinking in Lisa's post to Will. It changes the entire dynamic of the OB first vs. bitework first debate.

Along the lines of what Al said, I do get a little tired of people assuming you can't have a PPD w/house manners. Or, if you claim that you do, your dog's "toughness" is immediately questioned. Can't have a "real" dog who can also come inside...<rolling eyes> I think ultimately it's kind of an ego issue for someone to think that their dog is just soooo serious and hard and tough and all those other adjectives that it can't live in a house. Almost like Pit Bull folks who say their dogs are just too tough to be taught how to politely walk on a leash... . House manners are merely a control issue. I don't think you should have a PPD without enough control to live in the house.

If Michael was talking about PSDs/MWDs, that may be a little different, as they have somewhat different defining roles.