Sandy Moore wrote 09/10/2007 03:18 PM Re: Calcium Carbonate = bone replacemnet in raw mi [Re: Carol Boche ] #154935 - 09/10/2007 03:18 PM
Sandy Moore Webboard User Reg: 07-25-2006 Posts: 2665 Loc: AZ Offline	Quote: Carol Boche ...(out of all the supplements, calcium is one that really confuses me.....dernit) Me too, dernit!
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Connie Sutherland wrote 09/10/2007 03:26 PM Re: Calcium Carbonate = bone replacemnet in raw mi [Re: Sandy Moore ] #154936 - 09/10/2007 03:26 PM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	Well, the way it "comes" in the biologically appropriate food is the goal. Nature works pretty well in this regard. The calcium-phosphorous (bone-to-meat) ratio dogs need just happens to be the way their prey breaks down. :> http://k9joy.com/dogarticles/CalciumPhosphorous.php
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Geoff Empey wrote 09/10/2007 04:22 PM Re: Calcium Carbonate = bone replacemnet in raw mi [Re: Sandy Moore ] #154942 - 09/10/2007 04:22 PM
Geoff Empey Webboard User Reg: 02-07-2007 Posts: 596 Loc: Ottawa Ontario, Canada Offline	Quote: Sandy Moore  Quote: Carol Boche ...(out of all the supplements, calcium is one that really confuses me.....dernit) Me too, dernit! Dernit! I'm glad it wasn't just me! Good thing I asked!
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Geoff Empey wrote 09/10/2007 04:43 PM Re: Calcium Carbonate = bone replacemnet in raw mi [Re: Connie Sutherland ] #154944 - 09/10/2007 04:43 PM
Geoff Empey Webboard User Reg: 02-07-2007 Posts: 596 Loc: Ottawa Ontario, Canada Offline	Quote: Connie Sutherland There is definitely such a thing as hypercalcemia. The condition is more often associated with a malignancy, Addison's disease, etc., but also with hypervitaminosis D from oversupplementation. Regardless, hypercalcemia is not good, just as hypocalcemia is not good. Dogs need about 900 mg. of calcium per pound of food. Thanks Connie for the info. What would I look for in any of these hyper/hypocalcemia conditions? What are symptoms if any to look for? This is the mix I use. http://www.urbanwolf.cc/ The mix says to use boneless ground meat in this formula I vary depending on the frozen block of RAW I have. I'll leave out the fish oil with the raw fish block that is the only thing I do. This is the ratio. 1 Cup URBAN WOLF® mix +1 lb. Raw or Cooked Meat* +1½ Cups Water +2 Tbsp. Oil + 3 Urban Wolf Wild Fish Oil SoftGels. There doesn't seem to be any info or FAQ on their www for added end user ground bones in the mix. I'll see what I can find out from them and let you all know.
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Connie Sutherland wrote 09/10/2007 05:16 PM Re: Calcium Carbonate = bone replacemnet in raw mi [Re: Geoff Empey ] #154951 - 09/10/2007 05:16 PM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	Quote: geoff empey What are symptoms if any to look for? ... There doesn't seem to be any info or FAQ on their www for added end user ground bones in the mix. I'll see what I can find out from them and let you all know. Symptoms: depression, loss of appetite, vomiting blood, weakness... Going out on a limb a little, I would guess that since you are not supplementing with calcium but are just adding RMBs, chances that you have given a dangerous amount of calcium are pretty darned slim. JMO. Food sources of minerals and vitamins are not usually where overdosing comes from. Still, you will do well to get the recommendations of the manufacturer. You don't want to do anything "off" long-term. I looked at their ingredients on the site you posted. Those are things I would feel fine with giving, in their one-cup-to-one-pound directions. And you are correct to be using fish oil with it, since their Omega 3 source is flax, which we've talked about a lot here. (Short story: Dogs don't have the ability that humans have to convert the ALA from flax and canola, etc., to the beneficial long-chain Omega 3 EFAs.)
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Jennifer Coulter wrote 09/10/2007 05:31 PM Re: Calcium Carbonate = bone replacemnet in raw mi [Re: Connie Sutherland ] #154953 - 09/10/2007 05:31 PM
Jennifer Coulter Webboard User Reg: 04-02-2007 Posts: 749 Loc: Canada Offline	Quote: Well, the way it "comes" in the biologically appropriate food is the goal. Nature works pretty well in this regard. The calcium-phosphorous (bone-to-meat) ratio dogs need just happens to be the way their prey breaks down. :> http://k9joy.com/dogarticles/CalciumPhosphorous.php Thanks for the link. I think that it helps explain how the prey model folks (of which Mogens is one) don't panic about calcium to phosphorus ratio, and aslo feed more meat than maybe the original Barfers would have reccomended. From the article:  Quote: And better yet: you don't need to know anything about the actual deficiencies of Calcium or Phosphorous in the food you feed. You don't even need to know which of the two is missing or insufficient, or in which chemical form they occur. All you need to do is to give your dog plenty of raw bones that will make the imbalances in the food totally insignificant. How much is "plenty"? A good guide would be to use a natural prey animal as standard - about 7-10% of its total weight will be bone, so anything in excess of 10% of the total diet would be "plenty". You should not exceed 25% - because you do need to leave room for other nutrients also… Dogs love bones - so this will make you a popular pack leader! This is personally way easier for me to understand than trying to figure out how many grams of calcium I should be feeding per meal. I am blond and math is not my forte
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Connie Sutherland wrote 09/10/2007 05:38 PM Re: Calcium Carbonate = bone replacemnet in raw mi [Re: Jennifer Coulter ] #154954 - 09/10/2007 05:38 PM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	The goal of any raw feeder is to replicate the actual prey, and if you're doing that, then I agree that worries about calcium-phosphorous ratios are unnecessary. :> You're feeding RMBs, right? Were you worrying about calcium?
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Jennifer Coulter wrote 09/10/2007 05:52 PM Re: Calcium Carbonate = bone replacemnet in raw mi [Re: Connie Sutherland ] #154956 - 09/10/2007 05:52 PM
Jennifer Coulter Webboard User Reg: 04-02-2007 Posts: 749 Loc: Canada Offline	Quote: You're feeding RMBs, right? Were you worrying about calcium? Yes of course I feed RMB! I think I worried about EVERY part of raw feeding when I started, including calcium/phosphorus ratios I was overly concerned about thinking of my raw meals like a cup of kibble, wondering what the nutritional analysis of each would look like. Always wondering if I was getting the "balance" right. I am no longer concerned. My point to the OP a while back was that if she was feeding some RMB and some raw that included ground bone....perhaps (and I do not know for sure because I am unsure of her exact diet) that it may be okay for her to feed some meat only meal WITHOUT adding artifical calcium. Some of the things we typically feed for RMB contain a lot of bone. Sorry for any confusion
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Connie Sutherland wrote 09/10/2007 07:12 PM Re: Calcium Carbonate = bone replacemnet in raw mi [Re: Jennifer Coulter ] #154962 - 09/10/2007 07:12 PM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	Quote: jennifer coulter  Quote: You're feeding RMBs, right? Were you worrying about calcium? Yes of course I feed RMB! I knew you did. It was rhetorical, like "If you are giving the meat and bones the way they come, then no worries about calcium-phosphorous ratios."
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Connie Sutherland wrote 09/10/2007 07:21 PM Re: Calcium Carbonate = bone replacemnet in raw mi [Re: Jennifer Coulter ] #154963 - 09/10/2007 07:21 PM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	Quote: jennifer coulter ....My point to the OP a while back was that if she was feeding some RMB and some raw that included ground bone....perhaps (and I do not know for sure because I am unsure of her exact diet) that it may be okay for her to feed some meat only meal WITHOUT adding artifical calcium. Some of the things we typically feed for RMB contain a lot of bone. Oh, yes, I'm with you 100%. It's OVER TIME that we aim for balance, and also, of course you are correct that some things we give are heavy in bone and can be supplemented with other things that are heavier in meat. Once we get used to a well-balanced diet like the one on Leerburg.com, then it's pretty easy to picture in the mind what the bone-meat ratio looks like and to add variety. That's why I really like to suggest to newbies that they follow a well-balanced "menu," either from Leerburg or from the books Ed carries (and there are other very good raw sites, too, along with the excellent advice in Whole Dog Journal) for a while at first, because it helps so much to get a good idea of what a good diet is before creating meal plans on our own. I measured and weighed and pondered and worried for ages too when I first started feeding fresh food.
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