Btw Betty, I agree with you. I like the "wolf" like look of my dogs too!

enrique

 Quote: Mike J Schoonbrood

Betty, if you look at alot of Czech pedigrees, even from top working kennels, there are showline dogs 3-5 generations back (closer to 5 usually).

I don't remember the reason, it's driving me crazy now. Someone better answer the man soon.

Wasn't the Czech split between show and working a lot more recent then West German? I'm thinking I remember reading something along that lines......

Mike, you are right. The split was earlier in Germany and Western Europe. One reason you find showlines back 3-5 generations is because the split between working-lines and show wasn't as great as it is today. Dogs like Bernd Lierburg and others could compete in shows and do sch at a high level. They also produced strong working-dogs. In the late 1960's thru the 1970's show breeders in Germany made the decision not to use dogs like Bernd and VA2 Mutz von der Pelztierfarm. They picked dogs for color and angulation rather than nerves and drives. Recently, i've had friends who train and sell dogs to police departments in the US go to Europe and come back with a couple showline dogs that can actually work at a high level.He brought back two green dogs that had ball drive out the you what and could really bite. They were bred in the Czech republic and raised from day one by a good trainer. When he brought them out a few people snickered about show lines but after watching they left impressed.

I've looked at Jinopo's videos and they do have some show dogs that can work. It looks a little weird but definetly can work. Just the intensity is no the same. They do hidden sleeve too. Btw, I believe Piko, Balli Panta rei and few other have more of the show lines in them, don't they?

enrique

Hi,
Just because it is show dog it doesn't mean that can not work.
I knew couple of really nice dogs (show line) that could work and did an outstanding JOB just like I have seen long coated ones.
Basicaly if a dog would not work nor bring good trait to the breeeding they would not breed. I have asked this q my dad couple of time. He said.. just because this litter did not work out, doesn't mean that this one Female puppy (from the same litter) will not produce nice, healthy sound working dogs.
That was his answer.
"This dog's temperament compliments my females over the top drive, I need to bring it down and I will use show line, well balanced (sport dog) I refuse to breed some crazy nervy bastards...." Or something like that. He was a strange man.
Anyway. You will find some show in papers because: lets say, 6 generations of great hips, nice proven dogs (siblings) in dog's pedigree. Producing very nice pupies with the right female. and also... correct structure where some of the dogs are starting to look incorrect.
(lets pretty them up with the right amout of good temperamnet, working ability and level out drives)
Hope it makes sence

Less Defence more Prey... forgot to put it in there and sent it.

Martina, isn't that what they call the "golden middle"?
It makes sense though why they have one or two show dogs in their pedigrees...

Hmmm, don't know if it applies to Arminius, but I looked into some "show" sounding names in a ped once and it turned out that at that time, they weren't show lines, that the kennel had changed it's program. Wish I could remember...gonna go look.

Kirschental?

Maybe! Not done looking.