Okay, thank you Howard,

I have been trying to get hold of pigeons or other birds for him to search out. I assume that is what you mean by testing his hunt drive? I am waiting to hear back from a trainer who has birds so I can do this very soon, I hope. This may be the missing piece right now, or at least one of the missing pieces.

 Quote: Howard Knauf

Hi Gayle,

The fact that your pup has good prey drive doesn't neccesarily mean he has good hunt drive. But, because of his age, if his hunt drive is low you can utilize the high prey drive to build the hunt drive to the best that it can be genetically. Test his desire to hunt to get an idea of where he is at, then you can make the adjustments you need.

Howard

Hi Mike,

I appreciate this perspective. I had gotten advice from a trainer to make him spit it out into my hand so as not to drop it on the floor. I will go back to trading for the second toy for now.

 Quote: Mike J Schoonbrood

I wouldn't be compulsioning an Out at this point, trade for the toy, with food or a 2nd toy

You dont need birds to test his hunt drive. A favorite toy will suffice. You can associate the toy with the bird odor later for actual real life training.

As for pigeons, thats one of my hobbies listed in my profile. If you need to catch some give me a PM and I'll tell you how.

Howard

Howard,

I feel pretty stupid saying this, but how do I test his hunt drive with a toy? Do I hide it and say "find it"?

With birds I know you plant them and then let the dog sniff them out.

 Quote: Howard Knauf

You dont need birds to test his hunt drive. A favorite toy will suffice. You can associate the toy with the bird odor later for actual real life training.
Howard

 Quote:

I feel pretty stupid saying this, but how do I test his hunt drive with a toy? Do I hide it and say "find it"?

With birds I know you plant them and then let the dog sniff them out.

Just gin the dog up a bit with the favorite toy, and then toss it far into some long grass or cover. You are not looking for how long it takes the dog to find it exactly, more looking for how long the dog will look for it without help from you. Howard, did I get that one?

The advice on never letting the dog spit the object out on the floor is a good one. NEVER throw anything off the ground, only rethrow when delivered to hand.

Also, please do not forget to quit while you are ahead. Though you may have a pup who could retreive until your arm falls off, always quit the game well before the pup gets bored or tired, and leave them wanting more. End with success even if you have to go back to someing easy.

As far as ordering the Flinks video I say no. It is not the best way to build the drive (both prey and hunt) you are looking for and will do nothing to encourage a soft mouth. Once the dog is working well with birds, you may choose to use a video like that for helping with obedience or something, but for your dog "the retreive will be the reward" and you can manipulate your dog's retreiving obsession into focus and reward for ob.

I have a bird dog breed, but use him in SAR. I have used the Flinks video and my reward for searching is tugging on a rag/article and I use a ball on a rope for obedience. His mouth is NOT soft. I mean softer than a GSD of course, but any duck he brought back would be well, not in pristine condition....

Did you know that the majority of competing hunting dogs ar Force Fetched? Please DO NOT attempt this on your own. If yo are going this route, seek out a trainer as I mentioned in my first post. If you are just going to hunt on your own you may not need that. If you don't like the idea of FF then I would suggest you start reading up on marker training ASAP and join some positive gun dog groups (I think there is one on yahoo groups) as well. Also even trainers that use e-collers and FF use positive meathods as well. Some more than others though.

Any hoo your pup sounds like a blast. They are all teeth for a while! All of this is my opinion only. As I said I do not hunt with my dog. I know that my breed club and online breed list is a tonne of info and I could name various field trainers that work specifically with my breed because of being on and following those lists. I still think that with some digging, those folks will be some of the best resources.

Did you know that a lot of people here don't do any formal training with their pups either, as was mentioned to you by someone in field work? I think that there are things you can work on now, but you can also screw things up being a first time owner and can stiffle drive if you make some bigger mistakes.

Feild trainiers have many bumper drills and great progressions designed to build a bird dog's drive in an appropriate way.

Good feild dog/hunt folk are just as interested in drives as people are here. They use the drives to a different end, cultivate them in different ways that is all.

I love Leerburg, but I still think you would find better gun dog info elsewere.....do stick around and keep us updated though! (no offense to Howard or myself intended )

 Quote: Jennifer Coulter

I have a bird dog breed, but use him in SAR.

Jennifer, is that your dog in the pic? He reminds me of a Toller. Is he? He sure is handsome!

 Quote: Jennifer Coulter

As far as ordering the Flinks video I say no.

That was my instinct, but I wasn't sure.

 Quote:

Did you know that the majority of competing hunting dogs ar Force Fetched?

Yes, in fact my brother is a retired gundog trainer and teaches the force fetch (and is on the other side of the country, in case you were wondering . I don't know what will be best for this pup, so am exploring the options.

 Quote:

I know that my breed club and online breed list is a tonne of info and I could name various field trainers that work specifically with my breed because of being on and following those lists. I still think that with some digging, those folks will be some of the best resources.

I'm still digging. That's how I found the one trainer that interests me. There is also a lot of great info at versatiledogs.com. I don't belong to an American brittany list yet, but will pursue that route, now that I know there isn't as much going on in the EB realm.

 Quote:

Did you know that a lot of people here don't do any formal training with their pups either, as was mentioned to you by someone in field work? I think that there are things you can work on now, but you can also screw things up being a first time owner and can stiffle drive if you make some bigger mistakes.

I agree. That's why I'm trying to learn so much. I am not doing even formal obedience yet, just lure training with food, that sort of thing. Yet I keep slipping into the more formal realm as the pup jumps higher and higher on my body

 Quote:

Good feild dog/hunt folk are just as interested in drives as people are here. They use the drives to a different end, cultivate them in different ways that is all.

Point taken, but I'll say it again, the clarity here is really exemplary - and much appreciated by someone like myself who is engaged in a very steep learning curve. This isn't my first dog, but it is my first dog that will well and truly challenge my own intelligence and drives!

PS How did you add your dog to your signature?

 Quote:

Jennifer, is that your dog in the pic? He reminds me of a Toller. Is he? He sure is handsome!

It's good he reminds you of a Toller , because he IS a Toller!

I think it is great that you are getting into what your dog was "bred/meant to do". Sometimes I wish I was doing that.

I will PM you on the signature thing.

 Quote: Jennifer Coulter

Just gin the dog up a bit with the favorite toy, and then toss it far into some long grass or cover. You are not looking for how long it takes the dog to find it exactly, more looking for how long the dog will look for it without help from you. Howard, did I get that one?

Hi Jennifer,

You almost nailed it. Because Gayle doesn't know the extent of her dogs' drive, I wouldn't fire the dog up for the first search. She needs to get an honest baseline of where her dog stands so the search needs to be cold.

Take the dog to a field with grass or vegetation high enough to conceal the thrown toy. Bring the dog out on lead and don't let him see the toy. Put the dog at heal, produce the toy just long enough for him to see it, then throw it into the high grass. Give the dog the find command only after he has calmed down.

The intensity and elapsed time of the search should give you an idea where he stands. If he goes balls out till he finds the toy, then you're in good luck. If he lollypops on the search and gives up, then you'll need to use his prey drive to build on the hunt drive if he's capable.

With good hunt drive, you can make him wait longer (in small increments) before releasing him to search. You can also make him search for toys that are placed before he arrives at the search area, that way he is on his own with no stimulation from seeing the toy thrown. This is the true test...will he search for a toy on command without the stimulation..or will he just goof around?

Howard

Hi Howard,

 Quote:

Take the dog to a field with grass or vegetation high enough to conceal the thrown toy. Bring the dog out on lead and don't let him see the toy. Put the dog at heal, produce the toy just long enough for him to see it, then throw it into the high grass. Give the dog the find command only after he has calmed down.

So, I just did that, and he wanted to find it, but it was in pretty stiff plants with some stickers, and he gave up. (The grass was really short in the gameland I was in. The only cover was the plants.) And, since he's only 4 months old, I didn't put him on heel because he doesn't know that yet. I just held him by the collar until he settled.

There's no doubt he has a great prey drive, but if this test was fair, his hunt drive is there, but maybe weak. Does it sound that way to you?

How long did he search for it before he gave up?

Also, I would recommend using the lead to hold the dog back and not holding him by the collar. OR, you can kneel and hold him with your arm around his chest.

I do not hold dogs by their collars unless I absolutely have to. Just my two cents......