It's a part of the prey stalk behavior hardwired into dogs. I doubt its from submission, there is a huge difference in a dogs overall attitude and body tension, and posture in submission and in active prey/stalk drive.

but then you could argue that dogs can show conflicting behaviors etc at the same time as well. But I still vote for part of the prey sequence being the reason he is raising his front paw.

I vote hard wired prey in this instance as well.

I was always told by mentors to watch for this paw up behaviour and note that it will be prey related. The advice was delivered in the context of anticipating prey stalking behaviors in the wilderness and discouraging interest in game.

So we can vote on animal behaviors? Excellent. I vote that when a dog wags his tail really slowly, he's telling me he ate a small frog C'mon, if we get enough votes we can make it a fact! Who's with me???

Ever notice how dogs can differentiate between a tug and live prey? Isn't it amazing how a dog with really crappy prey drive for a tug, will still go absolutely crazy for a rabbit or a cat?

I don't see raising their paw as showing submission for prey when a tug is involved, because unless the dog is really dumb, he knows he's not dealing with actual prey, he is playing a game with his master, not posturing over food.

It all depends on the context in which the dog is displaying this.

I have seen dogs do this submissively or as a prey/stalking behavior. For a clear example of a dog lifting it's paw while demonstrating stalking behavior think BORDER COLLIE and sheep !

I would have to see a more detailed photo of the OP's dog to make an educated guess on her dog.

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So we can vote on animal behaviors? Excellent. I vote that when a dog wags his tail really slowly, he's telling me he ate a small frog C'mon, if we get enough votes we can make it a fact! Who's with me???

Well Mike I am never gonna know for sure, can't ask the dog. I would not call it a fact and of course was just joking about the voting. This is not the first time on a website that various opinions have been expressed! There is very often more than one interpretation for dog behavior in the dog world. Maybe only one is right, maybe neither. Maybe some dogs just like to lift a paw when they look up How is it a "fact" that a lifted paw in this case is a submissive gesture? That might help me get my facts straight

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Ever notice how dogs can differentiate between a tug and live prey? Isn't it amazing how a dog with really crappy prey drive for a tug, will still go absolutely crazy for a rabbit or a cat?

I agree that dogs are crappy generalizers. And that prey and a tug are not the same thing, though we do spend a LOT of time on this board talking about a dog that won't chase balls or tugs having crappy prey drive so there is at least SOME similarity.

I can only speak of my own dog but I note that I may get the paw lifting behavior when working with the toy, but do not get it when not working in prey, or with food for example. (He IS food motivated) (Sorry about the double negative )

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I don't see raising their paw as showing submission for prey when a tug is involved, because unless the dog is really dumb, he knows he's not dealing with actual prey, he is playing a game with his master, not posturing over food.

I kinda didn't get this part

Anything the dog is doing in the "Flink's focus" could be considered submissive I suppose. If the dog is sitting as it was told, or taught to, it is being submissive to it's master to get the reward? If it was not being submissive it would be biting the tug out of the master's hand. In that sense I totally agree that the dog that is sitting with a paw up....waiting for the ball to drop...IS being submissive. But so is the one sitting with both front paws on the ground.

Yes??? No???? I am willing to be enlightened

I agree with Mike on this one.

I have worked with someone who is purposefully trying to train the raised paw out of their dog in dumbbell work and stationary heel position. Their feelings being the previous owner had used more compulsion than motivational training.

As soon as they step away from their dog the paw goes down.

Katie

So there can be some ambiguity involved in reading the dog's posture when the handler's holding the prey...

How about a situation where the dog is working on a helper (in prey) and is intently waiting for the helper to take off so he can get a re-bite?

I watched some of the old schutzhund (US) nationals on DVD and was surprised to see a number of dogs doing the paw-raise when waiting for a rebite.
Now some of these dogs were clearly very strong dogs. They bounced up and barked right in the helper's face when doing the bark and hold and were always staring right at the helper's face (didn't see any avoidance of any kind).

It just seems extremely unlikely to me that those dogs - with such strong defensive drives and confidence - would be showing submission to the helper.

I agree Mike, dogs don't see the tug the same way they see a rabbit
However it is called "prey drive" for a reason. The reason we can get such focus and obsession over a ball or tug in the first place is because there's a strong inborn instinct to work with.

Chasing moving prey and stalking still prey is hardwired behaviour in dogs. You don't train it into them, it's instinct.

Even when you transfer the value of real prey onto a tug or a ball, the dog is still working in his instinctive hardwired prey-drive, not "let's chase the tug" drive

It would be interesting to see examples of extremely submissive versus extremely dominant dogs in "stalk mode" during drive work.

Maybe there's a difference.

 Quote: katie o'connor

I agree with Mike on this one.

I have worked with someone who is purposefully trying to train the raised paw out of their dog in dumbbell work and stationary heel position. Their feelings being the previous owner had used more compulsion than motivational training.

As soon as they step away from their dog the paw goes down.

Katie

Perhaps Cindy was most correct with her "it depends" answer. It certainly does sound as if it could be submissive in your friend's case.

I don't use compulsion in ob and I get the paw up when a toy is visable at times. Even with a "sit" from a "down" at a distance I will get a paw up, IF he is anticipating me throwing him his toy as a reward. I get other stalking behaviors at times too doing ob for toys, like the lowered head for example. If I move to food rewards, the stalking behaviors go away.

My dog's breed does have collie in it's heritage, so perhaps it explains it in my personal case at least.

Watch a dominant dog who is posturing to another dog who is not as dominant, the dominant dog always has his two front feet planted firmly on the ground, the more submissive dog will often have one paw lifted up while avoiding eye contact with the dominant dog. If the submissive dog exaggerates the lifted paw it will lean, and then roll onto it's side and then to it's back.
If a dog is slowly stalking prey it will pause with a paw in the air (concentrating?).
If you aren't sure which one your dog is doing you'll just have to ask him. :wink:
There are also friendly barks and aggressive barks; friendly tail wag, ate a little frog wag, and just before kicking butt tail wags.

Is lifting the paw a calming signal? If so, does it have to coincide with submissive behavour? Can it be a calming signal without submission wherein the dog feels no need to be submissive in a given circumstance, but exhibits a desire to relax and avoid conflict? Confused yet? LOL

Howard