Re: he growled !!
[Re: Carol Boche ]
#162772 - 11/13/2007 09:18 PM |
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Good suggestions.
I personally don't touch their food once I give it to them. I sit close to my puppy when it's eating, pet it and talk to it (in a nice tone).
I've raised two that were growlers and I correct them every single time they growl at me. Type of correction depends on dog. My male required a jerk on the scruff as a pup, and my current female just needs a verbal warning "knock it off!" (in a low serious tone of voice) with maybe a quick tap/jab on the cheek.
The second they stop growling, I go back to praising them in a calm voice and petting them softly. If they growl, I give another verbal warning (with a physical correction if they keep growling) and follow by calm praise as soon as they settle down.
Worked very quickly and effectively on my two.
My male last growled when he was maybe 9 weeks old (he's 18 months now) and my female just started growling recently but she stopped after a few sessions of the method I mentioned (she's 7-8 months).
I never, at any point, actually took food away from them or interrupted their meal. I just teach them that growling is unaccceptable.
If any of these desensitization/correction methods don't work and you end up with a food aggressive monster down the line, you can always resort to crating the dog when you feed it.
I definitely think it's worth a try to nip it in the bud, good luck
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Re: he growled !!
[Re: Yuko Blum ]
#162774 - 11/13/2007 09:24 PM |
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Oh, if the scruff grab and verbal corrections aren't enough, try a prong collar.
Just make sure you give a lot of praise when he stops growling. And don't overdo the petting either. Sitting quietly next to your pup is fine with an occasional soft stroke on his side or neck.
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Re: he growled !!
[Re: Yuko Blum ]
#162780 - 11/13/2007 09:50 PM |
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You've gotten some great suggestions here, I just want to add in another couple of cents worth..
Personally, from the very start when feeding a new pup I hand feed and pet, but I don't talk hardly at all. I think that holding the item and allowing your pup to chew at it while it is in your hand is a good idea, but if he is an avid chewer or is snappy when he takes something from you, watch that you do not get bitten in the process, puppy teeth are quite sharp!
If he lunges or "grabs at" the item you give him, make sure you don't have your fingers splayed all over it, when you hold it, hold it in more of a fist to prevent getting nipped. Don't jerk the item away if the pup lunges or grabs/snaps at the bone as this just enforces the lunging and will make them more likely to do it in the future (They want to get it before you move it, and will grab faster, harder etc)
What I have done for grabbers (pups, I should clarify) is when a pup is known for being grabby, I will wear a thin but durable glove on that hand, and when the pup goes to "take it" away from me, I will put it into his mouth enough to make him spit it back out. I don't want to shove it down his throat, but I want to make it so he can't/won't latch on. Most dogs will gag slightly or just not like havng their mouth that full and will back off/spit it out.
The point not being to hurt the pup, but to make him realize he does not need to lunge and take. I know some people do not agree with this method, and I would only suggest it with a younger dog/puppy to prevent being really bitten. Some dogs, depending on their food drive, might become turned off to the treat at first, like some dogs will if the kibble is too large and they gag on it, but I have not noticed much of that, or for very long. Usually takes them only a moment before trying for the bone again.
For the growling, I suggest a correction as mentioned by Yuko, but I would usually go with leaving a lead on and not trying the cheek/neck tap in case you incite further aggression and get snapped at/bitten. See what works first, verbal correction, flat collar correction, prong, etc.
Another thing I do is when feeding, I never feed my dogs in the kitchen or where human's eat/human food is. This is a preference of mine for a few reasons - I do not want the dog to associate the kitchen with food and being fed, no matter the dog. I also do not want any dog with the potential for food aggression and(/or) a high food drive to associate food/being fed with the kitchen or dining room in case of visitors/guests that drop food or hold food low, etc. I was actually bitten once by a friend's family dog when I dropped something on the floor of the kitchen, went to pick it up, and the dog decided that tidbit was HIS. I was 12, got bit on the face.
Starting at around the 14-16 week mark I have my dogs sit or down before being given their food or their treat, waiting 3-10 seconds depending on the pup, before giving the food or treat. This is usually after the hand feeding, which can be done with kibble and with the chewy bones/treats.
Best of luck, hope this helps.
Jenn M
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Re: he growled !!
[Re: Yuko Blum ]
#162789 - 11/13/2007 10:25 PM |
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I wouldn't be in a rush to put a prong correction on a 4 month old pup while it's eating, that might set up some problems later. I don't think i've ever owned a food agressive dog, i make them sit, give them the food, they eat and its done.
I still don't understand why some people feel the need to mess with a dog in the couple of minutes it takes to eat.
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Re: he growled !!
[Re: Al Curbow ]
#162792 - 11/13/2007 10:43 PM |
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Lol, sitting quietly next to the puppy while occasionally talking to it and petting it softly is hardly "messing with the dog"
I didn't invent this concept, I read what Ed had to say about it on his site back when I first got my male pup. I followed Ed's advice to the letter and guess what, it worked! Beautifully!
I don't see a problem with this as long as you don't interrupt the dog's meal in any way (as Ed advises).
I think he only mentioned the scruff shake, but he was talking about very young pups. If the pup's older and is too hard to respond to a scruff shake, a light pop with a prong is the logical next step. Of course the correction is always tailored to the individual dog's temperament - as I said, a verbal warning alone was almost always enough for my female pup and a scruff grab sufficed for my male. A prong correction would've been way overkill for either of them.
But hey, if what you're doing is working for you, no need to change. I personally enjoy being able to feed my dogs wherever I feel like it and walk around them without them taking a chunk out of my leg or snarling at me. They're all perfectly relaxed when I approach them while they're eating, even if I start petting their face.
My two youngest (that I raised with this method) will actually come lay down right next to me to eat their bones.
I couldn't be happier with the results
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Re: he growled !!
[Re: Al Curbow ]
#162794 - 11/13/2007 10:53 PM |
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I agree with Al in that my first course of action would not be for a prong, hence the suggestion to start with verbal, to flat collar correction to see what works and what doesn't. This, to me, depends on the pup.
Food aggression is very serious, IMO. For me, any sign of aggression while eating should be dealt with if possible. Some dogs do not just gulp down their food and indeed should not for health reasons. For a food aggressive dog that only eats a small amount of the food at a time, no matter how many meals you attempt to feed, try picking up that bowl (if you have other animals, or non dog-rule acquainted people around) and see what you get. For just crating a dog to eat if it is aggressive, some dogs become possessive over the bowl itself, as well as the food, and I have seen dogs lunging at someone who was just trying to open the crate and let the dog out. To me, that is unacceptable.
It is a dog's natural behavior to defend it's food, yes, but per wild behavior(wolf/wild dog) a dog's rank decides when, where, and what pack members eat. Unless the dog is dominant/aggressive in general or challenging the rank of an alpha, an attack on the Alpha for coming near while that packmember is eating is not common.
A defensive posture usually looks more uncertain, with ears back, lower body position/crouched and tail slack or slightly under, versus ears forward, straight legged, and tail straight out or up(usually "kinked" also). Determining the cause for the "aggression" is required for proper correction. I.E. a defensive posture, the dog needs to be shown you are not going to take the food, an aggressive/dominant/challenging posture the dog needs to learn respect of the handler and that such behavior is not acceptable towards an alpha.
Once again, methods depend on the dog. The age, the temperament, and the past experiences the dog has had all play a part in how to deal with the problem.
~Jenn M
P.S. Information is based on observations I have made while watching wolves, feral dogs, domestic dogs, hybrids, and reading/watching every and anything on canine/lupine behavior I can get my hands on. Yes, I personally observed wolves, both in a sanctuary, in a "home" environment and very briefly in the wild. Everything is JMHO
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Re: he growled !!
[Re: Al Curbow ]
#162797 - 11/13/2007 10:57 PM |
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I still don't understand why some people feel the need to mess with a dog in the couple of minutes it takes to eat.
My dog weighs 14 lbs. Sometimes the chunks of food he gets are 5 to 10 lbs. I have to be able to take it away or else I swear he would try to eat the whole thing.
Can a Jack Russell pop?
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Re: he growled !!
[Re: Yuko Blum ]
#162800 - 11/13/2007 11:08 PM |
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Oh wow, I thought this discussion sounded very familiar so I searched around a bit. There was an almost identical post to this one (with the same arguments made by me and Al) a few months ago.
Here it is
The pup in that scenario was older, harder and more aggressive around food than Collin's pup.
Most of the advice the lady got, including from you Al, was "leave your dog alone and feed it in a crate".
Excellent advice for a food aggressive ADULT dog, but maybe a little premature for a puppy.
Jamie's pup (a malamute, they tend to be very hard dogs) would not respond to verbal corrections or scruff shakes so I suggested she switch to a prong collar (coupled with calm praise when there's no growling).
The prong collar seemed to work (pup stopped growling after 1-2 corrections) but Jamie had to do this over and over again at each meal.
Anyway, a few months later I got a really nice e-mail from Jamie saying that she cured her pup's food aggression issues.
Better yet, her pup started doing the same thing my dogs do with me, which is to go lay down right next to her to chew his bones! He went from a snarly little monster to a relaxed pup who trusts his owner enough around food to willingly go eat right next to her.
She said that she corrected him with a prong 3 times a day, at every single meal for growling at her (and praised calmly when he wasn't growling). She also NEVER TOOK THE FOOD AWAY while he ate or interrupted his meal in any way. While the growling problem got worse at first, it disappeared completely after 2 months.
She thanked me saying "you would not believe this is the same dog" and that she was very glad NOT to have given up.
Last I heard the pup was 8-9 months old and is as relaxed as can be lying next to his owner and being petted while he eats.
Maybe there are dogs on which this method wouldn't work, but I say give the puppy a chance
(PS: I am NOT saying to start off with a prong on a puppy. Use the lowest level of correction required to stop the growling - this can be as soft as a verbal warning or scruff grab on a young pup. Jamie's pup was a hard-headed 6-8-month-old malamute so a prong was the best solution for him.)
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Re: he growled !!
[Re: Yuko Blum ]
#162855 - 11/14/2007 10:54 AM |
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thanks again for everyones responses. I agree that this type of aggression is not acceptable. I believe in not biting the hand that feeds you. I dont really "bother" my dogs when they eat. I sure dont want to have to walk egg shells while they eat just to get my house hold chores done. my female never once growled at me during feeding.
fed Kingston THK this morning and no growling...we'll see what happens this afternoon when I give him some RMB's
Clarify by spelling every little thing out. Some people can be extreme when drawing their own conclusions. |
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Re: he growled !!
[Re: Webboard User ]
#162874 - 11/14/2007 12:25 PM |
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Shorty after I got my GSD pup I gave him a beef rib. I few minute later I walked back in the kitchen and he growled at me.
My solution was to hold his bowl of THK for a few feedings, then only when he was almost done I'd hold up the bowl for him to help him finish. Basically by assisting him to eat, he developed a trust. I can take a bone from him know without issue.
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