A P.S. to Ben:

Many of the dogs owned by many people on this forum are dogs that are bred to be unfazed by gunshots. Not trained that way...BRED to be that way. A can of pennies just isn't going to do a thing.

Sorry to be off topic, Maggie. I apologize, and I hope you got some good suggestions here.

 Quote: amber morgan

Ben, I'm sorry, but after many years of training dogs, I just don't agree with your "95%" statistic. The first sentence of Jennifer's post explains why it doesn't usually work. The last two paragraphs explain how your method can not only cause the "discomfort," you dislike so much, but also fear as well....

I agree with this. I have a lot of dog experience, but I'm afraid I can't speak for 95% of all dogs. However, my experience does not support that 95% statement.

There are many other threads, BTW (recent, too) on training "quiet."

Here are a couple:

http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=134&Number=162345&Searchpage=1&Main=16902&Words=bark+Connie+Sutherland&topic=0&Search=true#Post162345

http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/162608/page/0/fpart/1

Hi Maggie,

I am lucky in that my dog is not much of a barker. We have a four foot chain link fence surrounding our property so he can see what is going on all around here. What I do when Buddy does starts barking is I go out to see what he is barking at, then tell him "OK", good job, and then call him over to me. That seems to satisfy him that I acknowledge what he was raising a fuss over and he calms down. If he does turn to go back to it I just tell him "no" "leave-it". He's a house dog, but if he doesn't want in at that time I usually see him laying quitely in the yard watching the activities going on next door.

Be sure not to reward jumping in any way, including excited attention. You can turn your back, in fact. You can also train what you DO want the dog to do in the situations that trigger the jumping.

I find it far more effective to train a wanted behavior than to constantly say "no" to an unwanted one. I'd grab some high-value treats and start training "sit" or whatever you want the dog to do in the jumping circumstances. If it involves the doorbell, then I'd enlist a partner.

I don't consider putting my knee up so the dog can't get on me to be "painful." That's what "knee in the chest" is. It's not some kind of kick.

It can throw the dog off-balance. At the least, it will keep the dog from his goal of paws on your chest and face in your face.

Turning your back might work fine too.

But no excitement thrown onto the situation: No yelling "no no no" or anything else that just escalates the level of frantic activity. :>

 Quote: peggybayer

What I do when Buddy does starts barking is I go out to see what he is barking at, then tell him "OK", good job, and then call him over to me.

This is what I do with one of mine. He wants me to come and look and say "OK."

If I come off as rude and argumentative I apologize. I have learned things from being on this bored and am sure I will continue to learn things. That said I feel like there is far too little diversity of opinion here and thats never a good thing. I feel that people here are to quick to jump to aversive when there ways to deal with it that are much less physical.

In my experience I have very rarely come across a dog that was actually truly scared of the penny can. It just hasn't happened to me. That said the purpose of the penny can was to redirect the dog's attention. Whether you use a can, a squeaker, or something else matters little.

The knee to the chest suggestion came off to me as the swift knee making contact with the dog as he jumps method of which I'm not a fan. If you are indeed just holding the knee in order to throw the dog off balance then thats another thing (although I may lose balance before a 85lb shepherd).

Once again I learn new things from this board every day but I also see too much attributed to dominance before examining other possibilities and to many suggestions of e-collars and prong collars for dogs that in my opinion could be completely and reliably trained with out one.

I agree with the use of a noise to redirect a dog's attention - that is why I use squeekers for dogs with an adequate amount of prey drive that like squeeky toys. Saying a dog's name is also a way of using noise to redirect a dog's attention, without potential (in most cases, unless the dog has been reprimanded/corrected by use of the name) for unneeded stress, nervousness, or fear. A squeeker is a possitive sound, a rattle can as I refer to them, is not possitive at all to a dog.

There are other reasons the rattle can doesn't work aside from fear - which I have already listed.

Some people do literally knee or kick the dog when they jump, so I can see where you got that impression, I have seen it in action. Knee up/knee to the chest (haha which depends on the height of the person versus the height of the dog, it would be knee to the bellybutton on a great dane for a lot of people!) it is to prevent the dog from completely climbing up you/scratching you/licking the face/knocking you over etc.

We look at issues from a behavioral point of view, a LOT of behavioral issues are dominance based. Most people equate dominance with aggression, the two are linked but one does not automatically equal the other. A dominant dog can be a calm, generally laid back dog, just because a dog is dominant does not mean it is a snarling beast.

Also a note on ecollars Have you ever used an ecollar on yourself? I have! I have also had EST - Electro Stim Therapy, for torn muscles, broken stuff, etc. Yes, I paid people to shock me, essentially. The point of the collar is not pain, discomfort does not auto = pain. Electro stim is a "zap" type of feeling, but the main result is stimulation of the muscles/nerves, it causes a contraction/expansion of the muscle, which can be quite startling, it gets their attention. Pain is generally only caused in very high levels, but this depends on the individual dog - the thickness of the skin, the threshhold for "pain" and what the dog is doing at the time.

I used my Dogtra 1700 NCP on myself up to about 60% of the full stim, on my leg, that is where my limit maxed out. It was not painful to me, but my leg jumped so much I almost fell off the chair. I have always had pretty hard dogs, myself. I started with pits, am staffs, rotties, with various mixed breeds, a couple GSDs, labs, a dobie, etc to my last dog, an American Bulldog. Certain types of stimulation, certain levels of discomfort are required to redirect/correct certain dogs.

An e-collar was suggested, by me at least, for when she is not home. If she is not home, she cannot correct or redirect the dog. Most dogs bark more often when the owner is not home.

Edited by Jennifer Marshal (11/28/2007 01:03 AM)
Edit reason: speeling :-p

Ben,

My computer just shut off before I got to send you the reply that I wrote. ARGH. I don't have the time to rewrite it, so I'll just hit the high notes.

I think you are doing yourself and your training a disservice if you think that properly used e-collars and prongs are painful or abusive.

It's not a matter of which tool is better or worse. It's a matter of which tool fits the job. A pair of scissors isn't inherently bad, neither is a chainsaw. But if you use scissors to cut down an oak, you're going to get nowhere. If you use a chainsaw to make paper dolls, you're going to make a mess of it. Weird analogy, I know, but do you see what I mean? Neither tool is bad, if used properly. And even within their proper "job" the quality of the tools matters as well as knowing how to use them properly. You don't cut down an oak when you're drunk and you don't use your scissors with the wrong hand! (Boy, I just ROLL with this weird analogy, don't I? )

At any rate, painful abusive methods are NOT used on this board. Many many threads have been locked and people have been banned for this exact reason.

Some dogs will never need an e-collar or a prong collar. Other dogs will run your life without one. Use what works. And I should have asked the OP the age of her dogs...you should almost never need a prong or an e-collar with a pup. Redirection is the way to go. But while you redirect a pup who was biting you, you'd need to correct an adult dog who did the same thing. Redirection isn't always the way to go, IMO.

At any rate, I believe that dog's well-being is at the heart of your comments. Please understand that it is at the heart of our training methods as well. E-collars are not cattle prods, and prong collars aren't sadistic. They're effective and humane, and if you don't ever need to use them, great.

Hi Amber

The answer to your question: My male German shephard Drak will be 2 1/2 our years this coming summner July and Holly my girl German shephard will be exactly 1 year and 1/2 (we got Holly last summer). We got them exactly 1 year apart and they were both born in about the same month between June and July.

Now with timing for when they bark, when drak barks, he is all the way at the other end of the yard from where my door is, if I yell,he can hear me if I say enough or quiet. If he is very far for physical correction, how would that work for timing. I know that you should correct them at that moment but in this case when he is at the wall he is too far to do anything at that moment because as soon as he sees me coming he stops and already starts coming to me for attention.