The main problem with prong collars is that there are too many bleeding hearts out there that make the choice to deny the effectiveness of the prong and are too soft themselves to stand the sight of it. The fact of the matter is that they do work so long as they are applied effectively and properly in training.

Thanks for the info on the medical study, Richard! I'll be flagging that info for future reference as well.

Although, I cannot provide medical reference I can say that you need to apply an effective correction with a prong, Rob; the same as any other collar. The phrase, "one good correction is better than 1000 nagging corrections" is echoing through my mind right now. To the bleeding hearts that you will undoubtedly encounter, an effective prong correction will surely be offensive, but the concern (and I'm sure it is) should be your dog. I have seen first hand a dog that needed the prong collar ribs removed from penetrating wounds in its neck from a multitude (months and months) of ineffective nagging corrections that just escalated and escalated until the dog was so damn tough around the neck and desensitized to the feeling that finally when this dog got a good one the ribs broke skin! Keep deeply in mind though that "a good one" became far more punishing after months of "training" the dog to ignore the prong corrections; by the time the dog got an effective correction his level 10 would have probably been a level 2 to have the same degree of effectiveness.

Yeah, while we're talking about prong collars, I correct with my prong MAYBE once a day? Dogs tend to WANT to please, and if they understand your expectation they work really hard to meet it. Then the challenge becomes, pushing your dog to the limit but not exceeding his limit. In this way, you slowly increase the limit without having to correct. It's there for when you need to correct a behavior, but it's not part of the training "plan" (as it would be with the Koehler method).

I think this is a very important thing to remember. The prong is a tool that is used far less often than I'm sure most outsiders assume it is used.

I agree with you David, provided it's used porperly. If the correction is soesn't mean anything to the dog, in that the correction is not effective for drive level and the dog's own 'hardness' then the collar becomes a crutch that is used way too much.

If you're going to train with compulsion, my vote is for the prong.
Years ago I messed up the neck on my nationally ranked OB competition dog with a choke collar and my, then, heavy handed training. I had to retire the dog. The prong will get twice the response with a tenth of the physical pressure.

Excuse my ignorance, but compulsion training is not a phrase I am familiar with. (The Basic Obs dvd on way may help).

Could someone explain that to me? We use food to teach the commands, and a correction when necessary once learnt. Is a prong right for this? We're starting the 'Building drive' bit soon, and hopefully Schutzhund for fun.

I'm starting to get confused now.....

Rob,

Compulsion training means taking the dog through obedience via FORCE alone. It means the dog is working purely to avoid corrections - that's his only motivation (no rewards).

No one trains like that here so I assume that Bob is referring to giving a correction to the dog, and not to training without positive motivations.

A prong (or e-collar) is absolutely the tool for obedience corrections once the dog understands the exercises.

I would be careful not to introduce obedience corrections too soon though.

It's best if you first learn to work your dog in high drive and enthusiasm. Once he understands the game (obey commands to get the reward) and knows absolutely, 100% without a doubt what the commands mean, then you can move on to showing him that he does not have a choice whether or not to obey you.
That's where a prong collar or electric collar come in (that's if your dog ignores a voice correction or a flat-collar correction).

Even then, the dog should still be happy and in-drive for the work. Properly applied obedience corrections should not shut a dog down or lessen his enthusiasm for the work in any way.

Don't worry, it sounds like you know what you're doing. Don't let terminology confuse you - people often disagree on terms anyway

One more thing, when you get to the point where you start giving corrections to your dog for not following your commands, it's important to make sure that you're 100% accurate with your timing and that you hike up the level of praise after a correction.

In obedience, you don't want the dog to be dwelling on a correction he's just received.
If you say "come" and the dog ignores you, you give a pop on the prong (or nick with the e-collar).
When the dog turns around and runs back to you, you give huge praise and make it fun and exciting for him.

That way - while he remembers next time that he has to obey the command - the lasting impression on his mind is that the recall is a lot of fun and that you will be happy with him the very instant he complies with your command.

If you do this right, your dog should be excited about obedience training and should look happy when working for you.

The difference with compulsion-only training is that the dog will usually be very slow and will look like he hates the work. When you see a dog crouching, staring at the ground with ears flat or crawling on his belly when he's around his handler, you can be sure that the handler was very heavy-handed training that dog.
That's definitely not what you want to end up with...

So until your dog is easily, enthusiastically and flawlessly executing the exercises for motivation alone, he's probably not ready to have corrections introduced into the training yet... just my thoughts

And don't underestimate the value of motivation even once you enter the correction phase. I think Ed mentions this several times on his obedience DVD, but every correction in obedience training should be followed by immediate praise and reward (once the dog complies with the command).

The only time you would NOT praise or reward after a correction would be if the dog was corrected for inappropriate pack behaviour. If you correct your dog for a rank issue, you ignore him afterwards - definitely no praise there (watch the dominant dog DVD for more info).

I hope I didn't confuse you more

I hope you order some of these DVDs, they are excellent and an invaluable training tool.

Yuko,

Thanks for that - clears it right up.

I really appreciate all the advice. It's helping us to make the right decisions for taking Teagans training and development in the best direction. Just waiting for that DVD now!

Rob

Hey Rob,

Not sure if this is a valid recommendation to you or not as your OP was regarding physical side effects to prong use and not its actual application in training but here goes anyway.

Just a few small tidbits, first off Yuko made some excellent points, good advice there. When I get students new to dogs (don't know if you are or not - like said not sure if this is valid ) interested in using corrections I recommend starting off with positive training using markers. Keeping training positive lets the dog learn stress free until it knows your command 100% before attempting a correction (like Yuko recommended) and the markers give the handler the chance to practice his/her timing in an "accident free" way. I haven't seen a dog yet that shuts down from a poorly timed treat but mess up a correction and you'll be doing more harm than good to your training program.

Thanks for all the replys guys.

I have ordered Teagan a prong collar (along with the DVD and a few bits) which landed here this afternoon. Hopefully they'll arrive in the next day or so.

I'm convinced that the prong is the way to go, ONCE we have gone back to basics with food markers and also re-established the pack structure. Should she need firmer corrections, WE are happy that the prong is the safest option.

Thanks again
Rob, Shalini and Teagan