Quote: Jenni Williams

For sport, this dog may be considered weak-nerved. For PPD, I don't mind it so much b/c at least the dog is alert enough to perceive a potential threat.

Jenni,

Could you please explain?
This makes no sense to me at all. I am not trying to crucify at all, but rather understand what you are saying.

I would not want a dog with nerve issues as my PPD or as my Sport dog.
Not only do I want my PPD to perceive the threat, I want them to challenge it and try and make it go away. I am sure sport dog owners do not want nervy dogs either, that statement seems a bit backwards to me.....

Mike check your pms please

What I mean is this:

We've all seen sport dogs who are sooo drivey that they don't even NOTICE things going on around them, and we know full well there are dogs who would excel at a prey-based sport, but who wouldn't bite in real situation. I have seen dogs deemed "weak-nerved" by inexperienced trainers/helpers when in fact they simply saw the decoy as a real threat b/c they had not been raised w/the sport mentality (the decoy is your friend, in some, like FR, for example). So I guess I needed to say that I am not talking about a dog w/actual weak nerves; I am talking about a green dog acting naturally, on instinct, b/c he has not been conditioned. Some sport trainers might not be willing to work this dog, so that's why I say not good for sport. I was generalizing.

I don't want my dog to run head on into a threat b/c he doesn't realize it's a threat; I want him/her to perceive the threat, and then take it on and win. So, what I mean is a dog who is aware and balanced (ie, not too prey-driven, not too defense-driven) and occasionally sees something he hasn't seen before and can be startled isn't a big deal, as long as he recoveres as soon as he realizes it's actually a non-threat. Maybe I'm misreading the behaviors of the dog in question, but if that's ALL he's doing, I wouldn't worry that much about it.

It's like this: you sneak up on me, startle the crap out of me, and I jump. Then half a second later I kick your @$$. Do I have weak nerves? Maybe.

Do I just suck at explaining myself today?

I think this post by Cindy kind of addresses one aspect of what Jenni is saying here:

http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=1&Number=156728&Searchpage=1&Main=16393&Words=%2Bif+%2Bmisunderstood+%2Bcan+%2Bruin+%2Bthe+%2Bdog&topic=0&Search=true#Post156728

o.k. thanks

This brought up an interesting thought. Whenever someone comes into my house at night, say my son after the rest of us are in bed or when we are all sitting in the family room late at night and hubby has worked a late shift, Levi is the first to go TOWARDS the door, he does not stand still and bark, neither does he run backwards in any way. Just a thought.

Jenni, Have I told you lately that I love you?

You have put perfectly into words something I have thought about for along time now. A dog with so much drive that it has no concern for itself or its master, blindly going after sonething without assessing the situation seems reckless to me.

Also, why should we not expect a dog to get startled? We do! Isn't that kind of a normal reaction for most intelligent beings?

We are still talking about intelligent beings, right? LMBO!!!

 Quote: RobbinMann

Also, why should we not expect a dog to get startled? We do! Isn't that kind of a normal reaction for most intelligent beings?

Right on! Good nerves aren't about not being surprised, they're about what happens after you've been surprised.

 Quote: Jenni Williams

....So I guess I needed to say that I am not talking about a dog w/actual weak nerves; I am talking about a green dog acting naturally, on instinct, b/c he has not been conditioned. .....
Do I just suck at explaining myself today?

Nah, I understood all of your posts today....including that you weren't talking about actual weak nerved dogs. I agree with what you said as well. Maybe we're just on the same page today

I have personally met this hypothetical dog twice and saw no nerve issues or fear issues whatsoever. He struck me as relaxed and stable with good confidence. I pretty much told Robbin the same thing you told her, not to worry about the startling. I don't think it's a big deal at all, not from how she described it to me. He may need more exposure to outside stimuli but don't see a problem other than that.

He just doesn't strike me as a fearful dog at all.

If you've seen Ed's video (first steps of defense) they show a number of dogs in different stages of civil agitation. You'll see a varying degrees of uncertain ("spook") behavior, and how the dogs deal. These are things the dogs work through and gain confidence from.

If you ever watch it, take note of Otis footage. Extremely discerning dog.