Yeap I am Carol, I will be posting play pictures, submission, and such. The only thing is with fear and nervousness, wolves really don't get nervous in interactions with each other the way that dogs get scared and nervous about things. I can show uncertainty and submission which is the same posture and body language as a scared and nervous dog. I will be posting pictures of happy interactions/mutual grooming/affection too

 Quote: Jennifer Marshal

The only thing is with fear and nervousness, wolves really don't get nervous in interactions with each other the way that dogs get scared and nervous about things.

interesting - why do you think it is they don't get nervous like dogs do? is it that pack order is stronger and clearer in a wolf pack than it would be for a lot of domestic dogs, or am i just imagining? i guess part of it would be nerves as well, and which wolves breed????? (okay, i'm totally guessing....but very curious!)

Sounds good, I only asked since newer owners and people who do not know dog behavior might view pictures and then start getting nervous about "what is that" if they have only seen stuff on aggression.

I have a great book called "Aggression in Dogs" by Brenda Aloff and I just got another one by her called "Canine Body Language".
I got them both from LB and they are great, not only to read but also to reference when needed. Great additions to the library.

 Quote: Jennifer Mullen

interesting - why do you think it is they {wolves} don't get nervous like dogs do?

They don't live with humans.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

 Quote: Jennifer Mullen

interesting - why do you think it is they {wolves} don't get nervous like dogs do?

They don't live with humans.

heh. that's what i'm wondering too....

Carol, I've read the book by Brenda Aloff, it is indeed great with lots of information. I will be posting an example of how she describes a dog that diffuses, or attempts to diffuse, an aggressive situation by sitting(usually) and yawning with a relaxed expression, sort of an "I'm bored" thing.

To answer you Jennifer, I don't believe wolves get nervous the way that dogs do because an alpha that is overbearingly aggressive and "angry" thus "unpredictable" of a sort in over reacting to minor things with severe corrections, would not last long. Wolves show submission in reaction to dominant or aggressive advances or actions by the alpha or other higher ranking pack member and it is a natural thing. Wolves really don't encounter things that stress them out or frighten them when out in the woods. For a wolf to be nervous it would have to be in a strange, alien situation where the animal was unsure. IMO, for nervousness and fear to develop a bad association has to have already been made, either associated with strange places, or certain things.

Not saying they are not capable of stress or nervousness, but pictures of wolves in the wild or in controlled atmospheres in captivity are of generally well-rounded animals in natural situations.

Ah I should clarify a bit in that when a dog is nervous it displays submissive body language first as an attempt to diffuse the situation, as when encountered with something unpleasant (such as an angry alpha, in the case of a wolf) they show submission as a natural response to stop the advancement of the unpleasant thing. When a wolf shows submission in this way to the aggression of an alpha, it is saying "I don't challenge you, I am lower than you, I am not a threat."

It is only after a dog's first initial signs of discomfort and submission are ignored and the "scary thing" is either still advancing or they are being forced to continue to move towards it, that they will "break" and either flop over onto their back, yelp, and urinate, and then run, or just tuck tail and bolt.

Edited by Jennifer Marshal (12/05/2007 08:10 PM)
Edit reason: rewording/spelling

 Quote: jennifer marshal

Carol, I've read the book by Brenda Aloff, it is indeed great with lots of information. I will be posting an example of how she describes a dog that diffuses, or attempts to diffuse, an aggressive situation by sitting(usually) and yawning with a relaxed expression, sort of an "I'm bored" thing....

That's the "calming signals" person? I heard a fascinating lecture about that book by a T-Touch person. Was the book as excellent as it sounded?

that makes sense. would you say that a big part of it (as connie suggested, and this is what i was wondering) is that most dogs live w/people who don't know how or aren't good at instituting pack structure?

i know for me, it's incredibly counter-intuitive to how i think that luc is confident around other dogs now b/c i don't let him deal with them. (and yes, tonight in the park, i got him so that he couldn't possibly have an encounter w/the off-leash dog, in my 'protector' role.) i honestly would've thought the opposite, in fact i did think that when i got him (and kept taking him to a dog park, which even totally ignorant me figured out was a bad, bad idea for him). i'm still learning to be a good pack leader for the dogs, obviously, but it's stuff like that that underlines for me our different species response. makes me think that's probably an issue for a lot of dogs in dog/human packs.

I thought so, Connie. My only beef with it was the use of the look at me game to redirect a dog's attention from dog aggression. It is useful, and it does indeed work on a lot of dogs, but it doesn't get rid of the aggression and without a leash/control over the dog, it is still aggressive and still just as willing to take out another dog.

I understood what she was talking about in the book by the use of the look at me game for redirection, but I was afraid for the average american dog owner they would think the problem was solved and their dog was safe around other dogs.

Err.. I hope I am not thinking of a different book on body language and aggression. It has been a couple of years since I read Aggression in Dogs. Argh. Now I must buy it!

Thank you so much for this great resource!