Quote: David Eagle

I dont' think a dog HAS to be in a heel position all the time for me to be an alpha on a walk. Anyone disagree? Other ideas?

To me, the point is that it's my call.


Sniffing around, etc., happen a lot, but only after a release from me (from a casual heel; they are either in an informal heel or they are released).

I.e., I set the pace, I choose the direction, etc.

When they are released, I stand there. I personally prefer that there is no confusion about who is leading.

for me, i am walking 3 or 4 dogs at a time, so having them in a strict heel doesn't work.
my rule is, they can walk slightly in front of me, or me in the middle of them, i don't let them have the whole leash though, so they arent far in front. Usually, my feet are at their back feet, or their middle.
But, if they are being crazy, or pulling, i make them walk behind me, or if we are walking somewhere narrow or stepping over something, i go through first.
so i let mine walk in front as long as they are relaxed, and they will all walk behind without a fuss.
i don't believe in a strict heel all the time, but i do think those dogs that are clearly taking their owners for a walk need to be taken down a few notches.

Do you train your casual heel motivationally and then correct for it?

She's getting good on "Foos", but has no casual "heel" for walks. She really never gets more than 4 feet from me, and I haven't felt a great need to train it, but I can see how I should really start using it, given her most recent display.

 Quote: mallory kwiatkowski

for me, i am walking 3 or 4 dogs at a time, so having them in a strict heel doesn't work. .... i do think those dogs that are clearly taking their owners for a walk need to be taken down a few notches.

'Zackly. I am always walking two of three, but if I had all three, I too would have to change my M.O. a bit.

And I agree that when there is a narrow place, I go first.

I have noticed with two of mine that if I allow any pace-setting on their own, that they will glance over and gauge the "aheadness" of each other and try to be more ahead than the other dog..... even though they are on either side of me. This is something that isn't OK for me, since I want their attention on me, so I just avoid it by not allowing anyone to be in front of me.

This all sounds picky, I guess. But I've realized over the years that walking the dog(s) is a pack-structure reinforcement, every day, every walk. IME, anyway.

 Quote:

I dont' think a dog HAS to be in a heel position all the time for me to be an alpha on a walk.

I agree with Connie here, it is up to me when they can sniff and be free. If I want them to go run around, I have a release command or bring a ball to play with. Usually I am up in the woods where there are no other people or dogs, at all. Even on trails when I allow the dogs to be ahead of me on the trail, I control where they are allowed to go.

Too far to the side/trying to go off the path, I short whistle, they straighten, stop, look to me, and I point forward, then they continue on the trail. If I want to go back, or down a side trail, I stop, long whistle, they come to me, and I start leading down the trail until all the dogs are released to run the trail. The maximum number of dogs for this is usually 5 though.

On regular in city walks I have a nice heel until I see something they can sniff or an area they can pee, etc. They are released for a specific item, like a tree, bush, patch of grass, etc, and then back to a heel and continue the walk.

For nervous dogs, structure helps them build confidence. If they are given too much freedom or on too strict a pattern they become desensitized to certain things and it is not generalized. Getting into too tight a routine can cause more fear for strange things as odd as it sounds. The dog becomes too used to a certain area with all the usual stuff, you create a bubble where the dog's confidence level is environmental, limited to the territory it has been to a million times.

A good place to start, in an area the dog already feels comfortable, but variables should be added in on a regular basis and new territories established. It can seem really complicated -- too much freedom causes a problem and too strict causes a problem. There is usually somewhere in between that varies from dog to dog, closer to strict, closer to freedom, etc.

As far as not wanting to correct her, you don't exactly have to. Does she know the look at me game? This is the first thing I teach pups, whether they are naturally confident or not. Give her a command or something to think about first and if she ignores a direct command, you can try redirecting first, and then trying correction, whatever you feel suits the situation best.

She does sound doggy but, well, it happens It isn't the end of the world and doggy dogs are perfectly capable of functioning like normal dogs. You can try using Noah as her reward. Being quiet and undemanding makes Noah come closer/come back. But only after working on a look at me/redirection. Is there anything, like a tug, that she just goes crazy nutso for?

Sensitive/nervous/inexperienced dogs take best to a possitive walk, everything motivational. But her behavior towards Noah seems to control the walk - she is controlled by the need to lead her pack on the walk.

For her nervousness towards new/strange things, I could go on and on, but this thread isn't for that unless you would like me to, or you can PM me or something. Dogs that are nervous or seem scared of everything are one of my specialties.

P.S. Regarding the heel. For walks, I never taught a heel command. I only use a command for formal situations. When my dogs have a leash on, they heel. When my dogs are off lead I call them to me, and then motion with my hand for them to walk with me at heel, no command is used. The word heel is only used as a possition for the sit, like asking for a front. Heel means sit at my side. Front means sit in front of me. Otherside means sit on my other side(my left) On a walk, they stay at my side until I motion with my hand when I stop.

me??
i don't really know how i did it. All my dogs walk in a heel separately, i basically just used a traffic leash and didn't give them the option to walk in front, and after a while, they relaxed into it.
when i put them together, they all walk in a line, biggest to smallest(i did not train that, lol), right in front of me.

the more excited they are, usually the first block, they are nuts, and they do pull, and switch around, but i give them each a pop, and tell them to knock it off, and they go behind me, and settle in. Sometimes, if i need to , i knock them with my foot, not kick them, but like a nudge.

But i walk them all on one hand, that for me is easier than having both hands full, and i suck as correcting with one hand and not with the other, so having them all together is easier for me.

but i laugh when some people i pass on my walks tell me i look like the dog whisperer......
i am sooooo NOT the dog whisperer.

 Quote: David Eagle

Do you train your casual heel motivationally

I do.

 Quote: Jennifer Marshal

On regular in city walks I have a nice heel until I see something they can sniff or an area they can pee, etc. They are released for a specific item, like a tree, bush, patch of grass, etc, and then back to a heel and continue the walk. .... Getting into too tight a routine can cause more fear for strange things as odd as it sounds. The dog becomes too used to a certain area with all the usual stuff, you create a bubble where the dog's confidence level is environmental, limited to the territory it has been to a million times.

Agree 100%.

I have two commands for formal and informal heels: Heel and Let's go.

And on the bubble thing: It's negative for most dogs, I think. The fearful dog doesn't get to expand his sphere of security, and the confident dog doesn't get any new smells/sights/etc.

It can even trigger territory-aggression expansion.

yeah, i have a "lets go" for all for them, but if i am walking them off leash, or separately, and i want them to be close, i say "with me"
personally, i never trained a strict heel, just worked on leash manners.
sometimes, i wish i had trained a heel, but at the time, i didn't think my non-competing pet dogs needed to learn that.
but they will each walk with me, in a heel-ish position, with a slack leash no problem....
i say heel-ish because the side i have them on depends on if there is traffic/children/pedistrians/stray dogs, etc. but their head is right at my thigh, but very relaxed.

i love the feeling you get when you and your dogs are 100% in sync on walks, when you can really feel that you are a unit, and you zone out and can think or daydream, while being totally alert to your pack at the same time.