Tremendously!! Thanks Will!

Out of curiousity...when you do this test, what happens if the dog fails? Do you discount him for future training or do you evaluate the dog and determine if you want to try and train him to handle the stress of a confrontation? I can't imagine that very many dogs want to fight on the first try.

Hi Robbin,

Not saying that I'm one of the 50 decoys that Will speaks of ( I KNOW I'm not) but, an untrained dog that passes such a test would not be that common. That said, Its up to the knowledgeable person evaluating the dog to determine where exactly the dog stands in the general order of things.

Its already been said that the dog has to be seen in person when the test is done to evaluate him. There are many variables that need to be deciphered to get a true feeling on where the dog stands. I don't think there is a person here that will attempt to tell you what you so desperately want to know without being within seeing and hearing distance when the test takes place. Sorry.

Howard

what exactly is this test (its the illusive term to me because I havent seen training in person) Is it a staged confrontation where the handler/owner and dog are threatened by a suspicious individual? I have read this in some books but I have left room for the methods I read about to be less than the gods truth...
a man who trains dogs in Ring sports, and who at the time, I had just met (minutes) offered to test my dog but I declined because it seemed a little strange and frankly I didnt want to create a possibly traumatizing situation.

 Quote: carol boche

Mike,

What about the whole "hidded" sleeve routine? I agree with you but was wondering if that might work as well?

Dogs figure out hidden sleeves pretty quick and there are alot of reasons why this is not a viable "test", but rather another tool in the box for training.

The dog who clamps down hard on everything you show him regardless of the decoy, is (to me) the dog who will likely have less issues with flesh and blood in their mouth; a scenario you simply cannot train for.

 Quote: Mike J Schoonbrood

The dog who clamps down hard on everything you show him regardless of the decoy, is (to me) the dog who will likely have less issues with flesh and blood in their mouth; a scenario you simply cannot train for.

Right! I can't tell you how many times I've heard a PSD handler tell me that his dog will dismember a bad guy before he's even had his first real street bite. There is no way of knowing until it actually happens. My Ciro was a killer, (I believed) but his first bite was weak. A real disapointment despite the fact that he abused the hell out of decoys in training(muzzle and hidden sleeves). His second, and subsequent bites were awesome. Roscoe (whom I felt was weak) tore up his first bad guy. A huge surprise to me. You just never know until it happens.
The test Will is speaking of does not tell you how the dog will perform on a first flesh bite but its a great indicator of how he will turn out.

BTW, Ciro was a chomping machine with anything you tried to give him. No finesse' at all. Roscoe was very gentle. Go figure. In Ciro's defense, his first was under a house, at night during the winter. I guess if circumstances were different the outcome might have been as well. The clothing was a big factor. There definately wasn't a lack of effort on the dogs' part

Howard

My trainer made comment that the dog might actually be able to smell the hidden sleeve, I guess there is really no way to tell if your dog will bite unless he actually bites someone. My trainer also makes mention of the fact that once the dog takes a real bite that the salty taste of blood and the warmth and squishiness can turn some dogs completely off. Guess it's a crap shoot no matter how you look at it.

I read an article yesterday that said training with sleeves and such as they do in dog sports is not really a good way to train. I will link the article. I'd be interested in hearing what the trainers/decoys think about it. It's an interesting read.

http://www.geocities.com/jetflair/police.html

Click on Police and protection dog training then go to Before you buy a protection Dog.

Hi Robbin,

I read the article and agree with everything written. This is information that every cop knows (or should know). Same goes for anyone training a PPD. Like Mike said...you can't train for real bites but you can try and make it as real as possible. I really enjoy watching a well trained dog just cream a passive decoy with extreme intensity. Especially during the engagement when the dog is trying to force the decoy to fight while he is on the bite. It still doesn't mean he will bite for real, or stay engaged on a real bite, but it does give an indication of the outcome when it finally happens. Its not written in stone but its a good sign.

Howard

I read the article to and i, for one wouldn't take my chance on a ring dog. I've seen,and felt, to many training acccidents that involved "real" bites. The fact is that you can tell if a dog is willing to engage. The thing is. When he feels the flesh does his conditioning of "not biting flesh" (as a puppy) override his bite training. If the handler shows his content with the bite the dog won't fear punishment and normaly will bite for real. Does that mean that every ring dog will bite for real? No but if i have to put my money somewhere it would be there.

Greetings

Johan

 Quote: johan engelen

The fact is that you can tell if a dog is willing to engage. The thing is. When he feels the flesh does his conditioning of "not biting flesh" (as a puppy) override his bite training.

Johan

Good description.

 Quote: howard knauf

 Quote: johan engelen

The fact is that you can tell if a dog is willing to engage. The thing is. When he feels the flesh does his conditioning of "not biting flesh" (as a puppy) override his bite training.

Johan

Good description.

Maybe just one more good reason to feed raw! When you are used to bloody bone for breakfast, lunch and dinner it really shouldn't bother you.

note to self: figure out ways to warm up raw meats w/o actually cooking them to get that just bitten taste! LOL!