Great post, Mike.

Rick, I think those were all excellent points. To have a dog that works for nothing more than praise is a dream dog. Unfortunately not all dogs will learn like this.

I have a female that could care les about a ball or tug, and shows only mild interest/desire to learn with praise only. But her food drive is so high that it is almost too much at times. It is my job to find a happy medium.

I have a male that that will choose a tug or ball every time over food, but is soooo excited, he can’t settle down to comprehend what I am asking him to do (in the learning phase). He jumps all over the places as if to say, “does this work, OK no, then how ‘bout this?” In his case praise works as a reward, but to learn a trick it is much faster to help him learn with a treat. Once he understands, then it is a ball or tug all the way, and of course lots of praise. I actually make a point to grab them at random times, me getting up off the couch for example, and asking for him to fuss, and doing nothing more than telling him how wonderful he is in a very excited voice.

I guess my point is, you have to find what works for your dog. Some work for praise, some for a toy, and some for a treat. But when you train with a toy or food, it is very important to wean them off and have them do it for praise only. It also doesn’t hurt (really helps!) to throw in a treat or toy to show them how much you appreciate it.

I do think that to build a dog training empire on a closed mind is a mistake, but if the guy is successful… To tell EVERYBODY that to use a treat is bad, is doing a disservice to many people (and dogs). A treat is one of the most positive way to train and there area too many titled doge out there that were “treat trained” for it to be an unsuccessful/inappropriate way to train.


Edited by JessicaKromer (02/01/2008 10:59 AM)
Edit reason: Oops, Mike was faster!

Oh, Jennifer, I was just picturing in my head Luc doing all of your commands for Teagan down the hall with a big grin on his face. That just made my day!

Thanks for the smile!

good points mike.

i have a feeling luc's foster home used food as bribes - he got treats for crossing the street, when they put the leash on, basically just for being - and it made him a bit obnoxious.

i know with luc, me talking in an excited/very happy voice is enough to turn him 'on'. and i'm pretty sure he's enjoying it, b/c he'll be wagging his tail, 'grinning', sometimes he gets so excited he gets an erection (which is really embarrassing when we do long sits in the park), and when we break he'll spin around and play bow and he runs around with his head and tail held high - all signs point to me that he's enjoying it. now, it's true, positioning him, even gently, is compulsive - but this worked for us, and he has responded positively (i mean, last night, i had my back to him, i only realized what he was doing b/c i could hear him thump into a down (i tried to teach down as a calm position, but he sort of jumps into a down wagging his tail with a big goofy grin on his face), but i'm also doing way more basic stuff than a lot of people.

....and that is also his personality. teagan trains with treats, b/c while i mark w/praise as well, treats are more effective with her, praise is not enough of a motivator. teagan keeps her own counsel and likes food

edit: brenda, yeah, it was really cute. i was like 'goofball, what are you doing? great job silly!' his grins always make me laugh, i don't know if dogs really grin, but luc does

Mike, as always, right on point!

Let's take a look at the bigger picture here; a trainer is a person who shapes behaviors in an animal, whether it is shaping a new behavior or modifying an old one. Behaviors are shaped based on the consequences of the animals actions, these consequences are reinforcement. The reinforcement can be either positive or negative (terminology ). Getting treats, praise, or corrections, etc., are all consequences to a dog's actions (a consequence is not always bad). But in any case the application of reinforcement is meant to either increase or decrease a specific activity in order to produce the desired behavior, of the trainer, in the animal.

In cases where a dog will work for praise, I think is fantastic. There is no stage in training where food needs to be phased out. Mind you dogs like this are few and far between; however, the praise is still positive reinforcement to the dog for offering a proper behavior. The treat is essentially entirely replaced by praise, although the dog is still receiving a reward for it's work, and the work is therefore being reinforced. But let's take it a bit further, what if we introduce a competing motivator? (This is not to single anyone out, or the work done with, or work ethic of anyone's dog, I'm just making a statement. ) But back to it... with a competing motivator what happens now? The dog has a conflict, "do I sit like I was told and get my treat, or do I chase the squirel". Competing motivators are known as "distractions". In cases where the dog is faced with competing motivation, higher levels of reinforcement now have to be incorporated into the training regime. Either the dog will be given a treat, where no treat had been given before, for ignoring the squirrel and sitting instead; a treat, which had been previously phased out, may be re-introduced to reinforce an appropriate response under more difficult variables; a correction could be given for making the wrong choice and giving chase to the squirrel, etc, etc...

I agree that "humanizing a dog" is not a good idea but I have found that it is the easiest way for a human to relate to a hypothetical comparison to a training idea. So, in the case of my carpenter, if a treat is a hammer, then a toy could be nails, and praise could be the belt; all these things are tools to be used by a rational thinking human being to condition an animal to respond with a specific behavior to a cue, whether that cue is personal (command or hand signal) or environmental (let's say a doorbell).

P.S. Thank you, Rick.

I have a question:

Do you all hide a ball inside your coat when competing for shutzhund?

Some days I dont even use a ball. Ofcourse, I go through leashes faster that way......... shes just gotta bite SOMETHING :p

But typically, I just keep the ball by my side once the dog learns the "look up". Lyka heels nicely when theres no ball at all, so I dont see why I should hide it. I have never gotten along with the ball dropper jackets.

I am talking about in competition--not during training. I have always wondered about this...

 Quote: Sarah Morris

Great post, Mike.

Exceptional!!