How about somebody tell Erin HOW to start a dog countering.

The counter can be defined as the dog showing aggression in conjunction with other behaviors. I consider two other actions, in addition to the re-gripping, as a counter. The re-grip is viewed as prey/aggression and is started at an early age when the dog has a shallow bite on a rag or tug. The dog is held on a tight line with the shallow bite, then on a loose line so the re-grip can occur. Confident dogs will immediately want a full bite and lunge into the rag or sleeve. Others may take a little time but will learn the full bite is better. The behavior of re-gripping is reinforced immediately in the beginning.
The second counter is the dog with a full firm grip pulling back and down. After the dog has learned to re-grip the helper must teach the dog to fight ( aggression) for the prey. Working prey alone becomes boring. Again, this is enhanced by reinforcing the behavior by the dog winning, carrying and holding the sleeve. Longer periods of prey/aggression and reinforcement enhance confidence and instincts.
The third counter is the dog growling, shaking or thrashing the rag or sleeve, and taking it to the ground to kill it. This counter is defense/aggression; not necessarily a good thing to reinforce depending on what you are trying to teach the dog. Especially if this is a young dog. The grip is usually not full and firm either. And, if the helper reinforces this behavior by slipping the sleeve then expect a nervy dog when the fight goes on too long. A good helper will channel the dog back into prey/aggression or calm the dog before releasing the rag or sleeve.
A good helper is essential.

Thanks everyone! I think I got it now. It's a little more complex than I thought it would be. Im realizing how important that first year is to training. So, more to learn.

Just want to add two pionts. One is the counter is genetic it can not be taught. And two the above point is correct if worked incorrectly the bite can become mouthy.

Vince P. wrote:
...the counter is genetic it can not be taught.
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One of the first things my Tom Rose Master trainer taught me was how to teach a dog to counter.

The basic concept is simple:
1. Give the dog only a shallow bite by make a very quick presentation...using a back-tie.

2. Pull back gently for a second or two so that the dog feels as thought he may lose the tug / sleeve.

3. Pretend that you (the helper) are tired and relax the pulling pressure gradually.

4. Even the weakest dogs will attempt to get a better grip when you seem tired and relax the sleeve -- they adjust (even if only a bit)

5. Let them win immediately at first-- then gradually let them counter-- give em a little bit more fight-- and let em win.

Genetics or not-- i've seen it work on some pretty pathetic dogs.

Dave,

I don't think it is a case of teaching. In my opinion, what you are describing is setting up the situation that will bring about an instinctive/genetic response--and then reinforcing it. Plento dogs have "lock jaw" and they won't counter no matter what you try. How do I "teach" these dogs to counter?

Jason whats a"plento"dog?

plento=plenty of.---------Sorry Milt <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

That is right on- "setting up the situation that will bring about an instinctive/genetic response--and then reinforcing it."

Reinforcing it so that the response gets more confident, practiced, and better. You are helping the dog reach it's genetic potential.

When we are talking about many issues in "training" this is what we are doing.

I would argue that almost all bite work is tought in this way.

Sweet point.

Ahh... for all you doubters out there... we must think creatively. I bet I could get any dog to counter using a rare t-bone instead of a tug... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'm only half joking here.

Never actually tried it yet.