I will also add that I really apperciate your advise and help, it will not fall on deaf ears, as I have... let me see.... Ummm 0 experienced Schutzhund people to talk to in person to guide my green butt, this board is all I really have besides Ed's tapes. I want to do the best I can with my doggie, so I can learn gigs of information about training and the sport itself, in the hopes of actually doing a good job!

SCH3FH2:

You currently have Private Message capabilities turned off in your profile section. Please turn this on in order for me to respond to your message.

Thank You,
Vince

Sch3FH2 wrote: "But countering should ONLY be asked for when the grip is not full, and then the pup/dog should only be rewarded with the win after he 1) deepens the grip and 2)holds without slipping as the helper gives one more strong tug. To reward the act of countering ALONE would build the association that Lonny is having problems with - the dog thinks the act of countering won the fight, so he starts offering that behavior more often and at inappropriate times."

Lonny:

That is what I was trying to get at but obviously did not explain it as thoroughly as above. Regripping is done for the sake of regripping. Countering is done for the purposes of above. Subtle difference in definition but crucial difference in training.

Hate to say it, but with a 6 month old pup, I would be doing zip/zero/NO protection work with him at all. I've been given the same advice from every European trainer I've worked with from Walter Kreipl, Elmar Mannes, Frans Slaman, Jack Schurmann, etc. They ALL wait and let the dog grow up. When he's around 7-8 months and again at 10 months, they let him have a few bites in order to see if all the drives are in place and to see the natural behavior of the dog on the sleeve. If he has a naturally full calm grip, they leave him alone and put him up for a few more months. However, if he has a problem that needs work, then they will work the pup until they fix the problem (i.e., chewy on the grip, fear of body contact, sensitive to whip sound, etc). Once they see the dog is back on track, they let him grow up and don't start bitework until they see some maturity - anywhere from 12-18 months of age.

You can and should develop your pup's prey by playing games with him, but stay away from the sleeve or tug. He is learning that it is ok to munch or to bite shallow and there are no consequences to it. When you "freeze up", what is a puppy to think? The prey has gone dead, now what?? He certainly doesn't know to out and guard so what behavior can he offer? He'll become unsure and with that you get the munching and tearing, or shaking. Or, since you have rewarded the regripping, he has learned to offer that. None of these behaviors are ones you want to foster. If you want to show him the "escape", fine, do it with a toy and release the toy the instant he jumps and grabs it. And civil work has no place in the training of a puppy, if you mean that you are showing the puppy some aggression (albeit slight). He's too young to be able to defend himself; you can't bring out aggression in a baby - it just isn't there yet. Let him grow up. JMHO.

Ok great! Thank you so much for that... Vince you too! I will continue as you suggest. I certinatly can't argue with you <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Sch3FH2 wrote “They ALL wait and let the dog grow up. When he's around 7-8 months and again at 10 months, they let him have a few bites in order to see if all the drives are in place and to see the natural behavior of the dog on the sleeve.”

This is a philosophy practiced by many of the top sport trainers including my TD. I personally believe in a more balanced approach. I am careful not to overdue things (A common mistake of beginners) while taking advantage of critical learning years in a puppy. I am certainly not the one to disagree with your philosophy but I just wanted to bring another perspective to the board.

I personally believe in a more balanced approach.

Interesting that you phrase it that way, Vince, because balance is exactly the reason they all give for waiting until the dog is older. The puppy/adolescent cannot demonstrate mature aggression with confidence. It's not there yet; the hormones haven't kicked in yet. The only drive the puppy CAN work in is prey, and it is exactly because they don't want the work to be so unbalanced (heavily in prey) that they recommend waiting until the dog is mature. You lose nothing (except possibly your patience!) and when the work really begins, the dog's personality is more fully developed and the work can be balanced in prey AND aggression right from the beginning. Don't misinterpret and think that I am saying the dog is put in the kennel for a year. The pup is developed and trained in every other way; only the formal bitework is delayed until the dog is emotionally prepared to offer aggression.

Well as I have only done like 15-20 escapes with him I don't feel this has caused much problem, I introduced him to the sleeve and only do these excersises to give him a tatse of what is coming, and to see where his head it at, as well as mix up our routine a bit, he and I get bored doing the same old tug ball and OBD stuff, he really enjoys the sleeve work we have done, as sometimes after when we are just playing ball, he will run past me to the sleeve on the ground and bring it to me saying "Can we do this some more Dad"?

He also has just started on the helper last month, with tug games and working on the bark, I really have tried to follow Ed's tape there on puppy bite training, of course which has no helper sleeve work on it... (my bad) so I will go a little slower on that game....

Sch3,
Now I would like to pick your brain a bit, what kind of things should I be working on with my pup at this age, and where do you think I should draw the line with bite training on him?

You guys rock, thanks a lot!

Lonny:

“…where do you think I should draw the line with bite training on him?”

What SchFH2 is saying that this work should hold off until maturity.

Sch2FH2:

Your philosophy is not a radical approach and is followed by many very experienced trainers including one of my two mentors my TD. But it is not viewed without opposition by many experienced trainers as well. Ed has seen some impressive results with dogs who were started in prey work from as early as 8 weeks of age. So much so that he wrote an article on this many years ago. HERE is a link to it. He makes some good points. Doesn't mean it is the only way to go but at least deserves strong consideration.