Can you describe what you mean by Luc acting rudely to you??

I can't see your other dog thinking to itself, well Luc isn't letting her move him with his 'collar handle' (don't know what that is, by the way) so I better step in and correct him.

I am a little confused on what you are construeing as correctable behavior by another dog. Maybe Teagan just doesn't like Luc being obnoxious. And corrects because it annoys her.

I also don't think that Teagan feels she needs to step in...... UNLESS, she actually is trying to control a situation between you and Luc because she has decided that she is going to take control of the pack, because you are having troubles. If that is the case, then I would have to answer 'yes' to your original question. Teagan is either becoming or has already taken leadership of your pack.

Now in my own defense I will state, that this is just my opionion based on the facts that were presented. I could be totally wrong and could have read what you have posted incorrectly. The internet typing back and forth can come off as rude and that is not at all how I was trying to convey what I said. Just trying to help and throw out another opinion.

i think it probably is a pack order thing. the first time it happened, that's what i assumed it was. and teagan has a history of rank issues from the moment i adopted her, that we're working through, but it certainly isn't out of the realm of possibility for her to have it come up in this situation. we've made huge improvements, but she does like to challenge.

i corrected luc for growling/barking at the neighbours, as i described, but i didn't correct him for getting a bit snotty w/me b/c he's generally submissive and his 'hmmmmph!' moments happen so rarely and don't impact his submissiveness to me that i sort of look at is as well, we all have times when we're a bit pissy. but i realized, i have a double standard, b/c i would've reacted differently if teagan had behaved that way with me.

the dogs have collars w/handles on them - like an agitation collar or deployment collar. they're not working dogs, but b/c of teagan's aggression issues (which are greatly improved), i do have a leash on her at pretty well all times, but i've found a handle on her collar handy, especially as while i do keep the small animals separated from her at all times, i like the extra safety measure of having something else to grab her with. luc has one for no better reason than that i wanted them to have matching collars. i can move teagan around with her collar but luc isn't used to and doesn't like it.

what he did was at first he just stuck his feet out to stop me from moving him, and when that didn't work, he started complaining, and when he did that and started shaking his head/really trying to stop me, that teagan went at him.

i was still able to move him, like i said, so i looked upon it as i would with a toddler throwing a fit 'knock yourself out, but it doesn't change anything'. teagan did not seem to view it the same way.

 Quote: chris mcmahon

I can't see your other dog thinking to itself, well Luc isn't letting her move him with his 'collar handle' (don't know what that is, by the way) so I better step in and correct him.

I don't think anyone is saying that! I assumed that she meant that there was conflict between Jennifer and Luc and that's what Teagan responded to...not Luc's "thinking" that he didn't want to be moved! It's much simpler than that: dogs that are more dominant will try to deal with discord or conflict between other members, IMO. I didn't mean to sound as if Teagan was playing Jennifer's personal enforcer or worrying about Luc's motivations.

 Quote: chris mcmahon

I also don't think that Teagan feels she needs to step in...... UNLESS, she actually is trying to control a situation between you and Luc because she has decided that she is going to take control of the pack, because you are having troubles.

That is my point. A pack leader deals with issues and if Jennifer doesn't, Teagan will (or so it seems) try to fill that role. As I said, some dogs (Teagan) require a stronger leader than others (Luc).

Btw, Jennifer...if I remember your past posts correctly then you're seeing some real improvement with Teagan, right? Glad to hear that things are getting better--you must be doing something right!

 Quote: Amber Morgan

I didn't mean to sound as if Teagan was playing Jennifer's personal enforcer .

i can't decide whether to shudder or laugh just imagining that.

 Quote: Amber Morgan

 Quote: Chris McMahon

I also don't think that Teagan feels she needs to step in...... UNLESS, she actually is trying to control a situation between you and Luc because she has decided that she is going to take control of the pack, because you are having troubles.

That is my point. A pack leader deals with issues and if Jennifer doesn't, Teagan will (or so it seems) try to fill that role. As I said, some dogs (Teagan) require a stronger leader than others (Luc).

well, and talking over this has made me realize - i responded to luc the way i did b/c there wasn't much at stake between us and, well, it was luc. he doesn't need the same kind of strong leadership teagan does.

edit: luc has benefited from me stepping up w/his fear issues, so that's not entirely correct, but they definitely react differently where leadership is concerned. teagan has taught me a lot in that regard, luc was SO easy compared to her.

and i treated it as a luc-jennifer interaction. but it wasn't just that, b/c teagan was there with us. and i find her very pack-oriented and definitely rank driven/challenging. so to her, it was a luc-jennifer-teagan interaction. i hadn't thought of her as part of the equation, but having talked this over and thought about - she clearly considered herself part of that incident, and she reacted accordingly.

i think it was my fault for discounting/excluding her from the pack at the moment and seeing it as only a luc-jennifer thing. i might think that way, but teagan doesn't.

....hopefully that makes sense

 Quote: Amber Morgan

Btw, Jennifer...if I remember your past posts correctly then you're seeing some real improvement with Teagan, right? Glad to hear that things are getting better--you must be doing something right!

thanks! it is night and day with her, which is why when she did this i was like 'eeerrrrrr! darnit! mutter mumble'

we can still improve more though

Well, I am glad to see you are learning and so are your dogs. Because that is what these forums are about.

But I still feel that even if it is a Luc/Jennifer moment, if your other dog knows that you are the 'leader of the world' then it shouldn't matter what Luc is doing or thinking because it's not her problem. She just does what she needs too and stays out of the way of controversy.

I am just going to para phrase what you said above. And basically what I get from it is, that Luc has some fear or submissive attributes. Because you say, "luc has benefited from me stepping up w/his fear issues" So I would be absolutely sure that all corrections come from you and the corrections would be very mild with a submissive or nervous dog.

And before that you said "i responded to luc the way i did b/c there wasn't much at stake between us and, well, it was luc. he doesn't need the same kind of strong leadership teagan does."

Now on that quote, I will say that I don't know about your previous posts with Teagan. Where Amber obviously knows some of your previous problems with her, I am at a loss. So like I said before, I am just going off of what is presented.

Personnally I think you are reading into the situation too much. The 2 dogs will establish an order. That is something you can't control unless you keep them seperated for the rest of their lives. But, what you can control is everything that happens when they are in your presence. And that is what I would concentrate on if I was you. Not so, much on domination but more on who is in control. Good luck.

Oh, they're my first dogs, I've got lots to learn

Teagan is definitely a dog that always pushes, and she is also of the 'see a chance, take it' school. Like Amber said, I always have to be a strong leader w/her, b/c if she sees an opportunity, she'll try to step in. Control is definitely necessary with her

Luc had fear issues when I got him, and he still does on occasion have his quirks. Last night, I gave him voice correction only b/c of his personality. Even if he had been on-leash, that's still how I would've handled it.
(to be honest, most of the work I do with Luc is just talking to him in different tones of voice)

Thanks!

Jennifer,

May I throw a different inpterpretation out there? One that doesn't involve " pack order and corrections" as the explination for this behavior? Toss it out if it doesn't fit

Both times Teagan reacted was when you were involved in a bit of a struggle with Luc.

Imagine my husband and I are standing around an my dog is watching, or near by. Then my husband grabs me by the neck and starts to pull me around and let out a little squeak. Well, I can tell you that my dog that knows his place very well would be over there and on us! I mean he has good bite inhibiton, but he WANTS to bite when there is a struggle.

I do not think that he is trying to correct our behavior. I do not think he is trying to protect me or my husband. I do not think he thinks that he is higher ranking than either one of us. I think he is prey driven and when there is a sign of a struggle often dogs want to jump in. He is activated by the struggle, and goes into prey mode (if allowed)

Could it be that that Teagan is just activated by the sound/actions of a small struggle? Luc is a more acceptable target than you.

I just can't really wrap my head around the fact that Teagan thinking that you are not doing a good enough job keeping Luc in line and that Teagan needs to take matters into her own hands (paws/teeth). Seems to anthropomorphic and contrived to me.

What do you think would happen if Luc had done nothing wrong and you just grabbed him off guard and pulled him so he squeaked/struggled. Would Teagan target you for correcting Luc unfairly, or would Teagan not react because Luc had actually done nothing wrong, or would Teagan go for Luc even though Luc did nothing wrong, and was just being picked on by you?

I dunno, just something to think about. It could be totally a pack thing...just brainstorming for you

No, that's interesting.

Certainly Teagan isn't short on prey drive....I mean, I have to keep all the small animals behind child-safety proofed doors when she's not crated.

I can't know for sure, but depending - I've tried taking Luc by the collar before, but in a friendly way, just to pull him closer for a pet or something, and he reacts with 'agghhh!'. But then I just get him to close to me by old fashion asking. (yeah, sometimes I'm dumb) I think if it reached the level of his shaking around and getting noisy, Teagan probably would run at him the same way. But I'm not sure.

....I was just tempted to attempt an experiment, but that's mean.

The 'kind of' time where I think she might have done this was in the aftermath of the ex-PSD attack. When Luc was found under the trailer after slipping his collar, Teagan growled at him. When I was told about it, I thought maybe she was telling him 'dumbs you're not supposed to be under there' but as she was fairly amped up from being stopped from attacking the dogs back, maybe that's why she growled. Hard to say as she accepted being restrained by my mom but then went after the ex-PSD's owner, so I'm not sure about her level of arousal.

Definitely something to think about though Jennifer, thanks! I'll try to see if I can see any signs of that.