For those of us who don't participate in PP or sports work, would it be possible to post or link to a video of a good dog doing this same work?

I'm a little hot right now. Anyone who wishes not to participate in fixing the problem is free to cancel/non-renew their membership in either UScA or GSDCA-WDA. The thing is I am sure I won't be seeing any of you at a UScA or WDA schutzhund trial with your dogs either, right? I mean denouncing the organizations that put on the overwhelming majority of schutzhund trials in this country then participating in any of those trials sure would be hypocritical. So good luck finding a lot of DVG trials to compete at. For myself, I prefer to stick it out. I'd rather be part of the solution than part of the problem.

I'm sorry Rich, I didn't mean to ignore your question. I suggest you go to this site, go to movie page, then Hall of Famers. There are about a zillion old to very modern WUSV and BSP performances to look at. Gee guys, guess we still have maybe a little room for improvement and a lot still to learn compared to the WUSV and BSP competitors.

http://www.vombanholz.be/

Also, UScA started out at a schutzhund organization. The problem is all the real money is in show lines not working lines. Politics makes strange bedfellows, but it is in the interest of ALL the dogs if we work together instead of fragmenting apart.

PLEASE, if you guys are members of UScA, follow Ed's lead and sign that petition! Please remember to add your membership number. If you forget, you can email it to the person who is handling the petition and she will add it manually once she prints it out.

Far be it from me to point any fingers at the "golden middle" dogs. However, even I was shocked to see this dog be considered pronounced in courage. My novice 16 month old, PP trainee has more umph in his tiny little toe than that poor dog did! It is a shame isn't it that for the vanity of man a truely royal breed has been reduced to such a state.

All I can muster the gumption to say is...

WOW! and I don't mean that in a good way

 Quote: rich pallechio

For those of us who don't participate in PP or sports work, would it be possible to post or link to a video of a good dog doing this same work?

To be more specific, these are some of my favorite dogs to look up on the Movie Page (in the "Hall of Fame" section) of the Vam Banholz site Susan linked above. (no no, I'm not biased because my pups are from these lines )

The site doesnt seem to work for me right now so I'll just list the names of the dogs and you'll have to look up the videos yourself when the site works again.

Nick vom Heiligenbosch
the Vom Banholz video is also on YouTube:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=6WjKOJvG3KQ

Pike von der Schafbachmühle (pay attention to the speed of the dogs recall)
Fero vom Zeuterner Himmelreich
Mink vom Haus Wittfeld

Melano vom Cap Arkona:
http://www.myvideo.de/watch/113024/Melano10

For those who have been asking about the videos....

I had the excellent opportunity yesterday to watch several of the male protection test videos with our trainer and helper Dave Blank. We did not have time to watch all the males, but we did watch the videos of the males Ed is referenceing which included VA8 Ingodd's Albert and VA1 (Sieger) Teejay v. Wilhendorf.

Dave also took exception to Teejay's pronounced rating for the following specific reasons - which I'm sure is at least in part what Ed is referencing. Hopefully some additional detail will help those who have been asking for more specifics about what is wrong.

(Teejay is the 2nd dog on the video) In Dave's opinion, the biggest flaw in the performance that was a rule violation for a "pronounced" rating was on the attack out of the blind. On the initial watching of the video, it seemed clear that Teejay came off on the stick hits, which SHOULD automatically result in an insufficient rating.

On further review (several times) it appeared that the dog did make an effort to re-engage, but was not incredibly successful at that (nor did the helper continue to drive the dog in that situation, which Dave feels he should have, based on Dave's understanding of the rules). A proper re-engagement would have called for a "sufficient" rating on that excercise - which in Dave's opinion would have been the proper thing to do - give the dog the benefit of the doubt since the helper did not continue to drive the dog to a proper conclusion.

BUT...a sufficient (not pronounced) rating would have made Teejay ineligible for a VA rating - hence the Sieger (winning) rating.

In addition to Ed, I know there are many here who are very familiar with the rules - either as competitors or helpers or both, etc. I'm curious to know if this specific assessment of the damage is similar to what others saw here. And just to clarify, when Dave watches and comments on this stuff, he isn't really focused on whether he thinks work is particularly "pretty" or "impressive" - he focuses his comments based on his understanding of the rules, which I think is helpful. Trust me - that guy is a perfectionist and there is plenty he finds to criticize on the "pretty" front. But I'm glad he is able to watch a performance and make a rules based assessment.

The first dog on the video Ingodd's Albert is a whole 'nother can of worms, but since this thread is about the performance test of the Sieger (Teejay v. Wilhendorf), I'll leave that assessment for another day.

Beth

I have participated in the Seiger Show here in the US and in Canada, and having come from the working side of the german shepherd dog, I too, am frustrated with the inconsistenties
that we see, between the abilites of our show and working lines.
I see faults in both. One of the things that we must also keep in mind is that we are Monday morning quarterbacking here.
It is the decoy's job to present the dog to the judge and in the drive work, that is not always possible. Perhaps, just perhaps
the dog was not completely visible the entire time to the judge.
Bottom line is our working dogs need to be built with standards and the show dogs need to work better. We all need to smarten up
and put the dog first instead of our pocket books. It's all about the money isn't it? And guess what, it ain't just about shepherds either!!!!!!

What are the requirements for someone to compete? What is the reason there's no working line dog out there to wipe the floor with everyone? Ive never paid any attention to showlines in sports....

Mike because even though it is a simple matter for most working line dog to pass the protection phase with a pronounced, the dog must then enter the ring and compete with the show dogs in gaiting and conformation, and after that it's usually back to the end of the line - especially if the dog is not black and red! I believe most working line dogs competing are doing so to be eligible for Universal Seiger titles.

What comes first? The dog show or the work?

I'd enter my ugly working dog in the working phase just for kicks even if I totally blew the showing :p