Quote: alyssa myracle

Denise, I'm with you 110% that leash manners and leave it are neccessary for a dog that will be walking in public. ... I also agree that prongs are appropriate for a dog that finds pulling self-rewarding behavior, and cannot be taught any other way, not to pull. .... I am a much bigger fan of motivational training, especially with such crucial behaviors like heel and leave it....

Me too. I also understand why following Koehler produces the posts we're reading.

Yes, before anyone asks, I have actually read Koehler and am not referring just to the hugely controversial digging and dog-aggression (and other) "cures."

Koehler was probably a breakthrough 40 years ago. But there are much superior training methods now. JMO.

Initial loose lead training was done with the walking backwards method. Pulling against the lead caused negative progress towards the desired destination. Initial heel training was a further shaping of that behavior, in that we only made progress if she was in position. (The position was slowly narrowed from anywhere the lead was loose to my left side.)

Leave it was done purely with corrections. This is a major safety issue where I live, I'm not playing around with hoping that what I have is more distracting than the object on the ground. She is very good at this now. We have no problems with this. She will obey this command with no corrective collar on.

Proofing for distractions on loose lead/heel was accomplished by adding about turns. I left slack in the lead, and she was given an opportunity to beat the correction by matching my move. She did recieve some corrections at first before she learned that paying attenion to me was important. She is very good at this now, although I end up walking in circles sometimes when she's very distracted and I'm using the choke. She still beats the correction and stays with me.

She knows though what collar she has on, and how much she wants to push it. You can take her for a walk with the prong on the beach on the fourth of July, and not have to correct her except verbally. Take the same walk with the choke, and you'll have to do the about turns, but she will beat the correction. Take the same walk with the buckle collar, and you have a different dog, that you have to fight to keep in line.

My dogs are too smart. I love them that way though. It just makes training more challenging for me.

 Quote: Alyssa Myracle

I am a much bigger fan of motivational training, ...

I'm not understanding why the prong would seem so itchy to your girl. If anything, a choke should seem more aggravating than a prong, hair/itchy wise.

The motivational methods I've seen result in a dog that watches a target or the face instead of where it's going. If your method has a diffrent result, I'm willing to hear more. Maggie has learned these things by my methods, she just doesn't do them when she thinks she can get away with it.

The prong gets under the fur, the choke rides on top of it. The prong is also more snug when properly sized/fitted.

 Quote: connie sutherland

Me too. I also understand why following Koehler produces the posts we're reading.

I do not follow Koehler. I mentioned him because he is one of the few folks to have given a straight answer to the origional poster's question. You may note I followed the Kohler mention with lots of additional information that Kohler's strict adherants would not agree to. I have read several training books from both sides of the isle, and I don't think my end training technique really "follows" any of them. I do what works for the dog. I use slightly diffrent techniques on my two dogs, because they have different personalities.

FWIW- My dog itches at her neck when the prong collar is on.

 Quote: denise skidmore

The motivational methods I've seen result in a dog that watches a target or the face instead of where it's going. If your method has a diffrent result, I'm willing to hear more.

OK, if you read this page

http://doglinks.co.nz/problems/barry_place/CT_for_heel.htm

in full, and then hone in on "Targeting," it will save loads of typing and probably open some great dialogue.

http://leerburg.com/MARKERS--backup.html
Scroll to "Splitting," and then read "Lumping."

Note that teaching the dog to focus on your face for a competition heel is strictly the handler's choice. It's nothing inherent in the training method.

 Quote: Denise Skidmore

 Quote: Alyssa Myracle

I am a much bigger fan of motivational training, ...

I'm not understanding why the prong would seem so itchy to your girl. If anything, a choke should seem more aggravating than a prong, hair/itchy wise.

The motivational methods I've seen result in a dog that watches a target or the face instead of where it's going. If your method has a diffrent result, I'm willing to hear more. Maggie has learned these things by my methods, she just doesn't do them when she thinks she can get away with it.

The prong gets under the fur, the choke rides on top of it. The prong is also more snug when properly sized/fitted.

It doesnt have to result in the dog only watching your face. Looking into your face and being in an obedience heel position is one command and walking calmly next to you is a casual command. They're each rewarded differently.

 Quote: denise skidmore

The motivational methods I've seen result in a dog that watches a target or the face instead of where it's going. If your method has a diffrent result, I'm willing to hear more.

My pup knows two different methods of walking on a leash.
There is "foos", which is her competition heeling. There, she watches my face.

However, there is also "walk", which is a more informal heeling. She keeps her shoulder even with my knee, but is free to look around, make adjustments for obstacles, etc.

Both were taught motivationally, and we are still working on "foos", because it requires a lot of focus from a 7 month old pup.

"Walk" was taught in a manner not dissimilar to yours, in that progress and reward did not happen when the dog was out of position.
Motivational methods only result in the dog staring at your face or belt buckle when that is the goal. Initially, even when the goal is to have a dog that watches your face, they only glance up from time to time. Those of us that are training for that behavior, choose that time to mark and then reward.

If your goal is simply a dog that heels nicely alongside, without the focus being on your body, then mark when the dog walks alongside.

I've yet to hear of a task a dog cannot be trained to perform using marker training. Though, I suppose there is always a first time for everything.

My greyhound works well with marker training. I don't use the clicker, as the sound is annoying, but I use praise with a primary re-enforcer of physical affection. (This dog works harder for contact than food. Our first trainer told me to stop feeding him before class, when I never did.)

I have found it less useful with the Great Dane. I have nothing against the method itself, but it seems to take a bit of skill to apply correctly, and I'm a so-so trainer. The puppy's reactions are faster and I just don't seem to be able to match them. (Greyhounds can act fast, but they prefer to act slow when not in prey drive.)

It's not the dog or the method, it's me. I'm sure a better trainer could do wonders with marker training with her.

 Quote: denise skidmore

I use praise with a primary re-enforcer of physical affection. (This dog works harder for contact than food. Our first trainer told me to stop feeding him before class, when I never did.) .... The puppy's reactions are faster and I just don't seem to be able to match them. (Greyhounds can act fast, but they prefer to act slow when not in prey drive.) ... It's not the dog or the method, it's me. I'm sure a better trainer could do wonders with marker training with her.

A great benefit of the marker is to give you, the handler, time to get the reward fumbled out.

You don't mention the marker you used. Unlike praise, the marker would be one small sound, always the same, like "yes" or a click. (I use a verbal marker, too.)

I agree with the suggestion to start with a hungry dog, and maybe to go over some terminology:
http://www.clickertraining.com/glossary

(Example: Primary reinforcer ... A reinforcer that the animal is born needing. Food, water, and sex are primary reinforcers.)

Physical affection can definitely be a big part of training.

ETA: Have you ever seen the Leerburg Basic Ob video?

http://leerburg.com/302.htm