Hey Cameron, as I watched your video something Roni posted in this thread came to mind,
Drive and focus
I found the post where she talks about the rythem and the running a big improvement over what I was doing. I'm not sure if that exact thing is on the drive and focus dvd but I really like it. And I think it would apply to your current training.

Not sure I understand what you are meaning here, Steve... I went back and re-read that thread, but I don't quite understand what you mean...

 Quote:

(I knew it would!)To invite your dog to come back into you, I find it important to move backwards, then while I am tugging with one hand, I pick up the leash, and start to run in
a circle, perhaps at first just a few steps, then backwards again, tug tug tug, and then throw the ball. I would like to see the dog jumping up to you and wanting to tug before I would add any obedience, and we will be starting with just a sit.
I would also like you to now interject popping the ball or tug or whatever you are using, into the dogs mouth and then start the moving back, tug of war game again. I hate throwing the reward away from me as I want the dog to understand that the toy is just a "vehicle with which to play the game". Hope YOU are having fun too! These movements help the dog not to want to take the toy away, but involve you!!!!!!

This part here is what I meant, it's just a little different way that may be useful to you.

Glad to see she is doing better, Cameron! One suggestion I have is that I noticed she let go/outted/dropped it/mouthed when you started talking more or louder, even though you were praising her. I would tone down the talking, not even any praising, and when she does hold on for a second, instead of leaning over her to tug forward, facing her, stand sideways and tug from the side or back and don't talk.

I also agree with the above quote by Steve and his suggestion, and also - is that where you normally do drive work or work with the ball? Or was that just for video purposes? If you have access to a larger, grassy area I would highly recommend it (that is, if you don't already go to one) so that the movements you make with the ball are more natural and not so restricted by the space you are in. I think Kavik will benefit from a more open area to move and you won't have to pull the ball back over her head and cause that upwards and backwards/sideways movement that can eb uncomfortable and sometimes turn the dog off to the work. When you pull up and then push the item back towards the dog it is uncomfortable and tends to make them lose grip or drop the item.

Also, there were times when your movement blocked her from the ball. I don't know if that was intentional but another benefit of an open area is the ability to move back and circular, like pivoting on one leg when the dog comes around to the side, or to back up versus going side to side and around and back and forward.

She looks good, I think with some more work she will be fine. You obviously have a good bond with her and she trusts you. I think you will both get over this unfortunate experience

 Quote: jennifer marshal

Glad to see she is doing better, Cameron! One suggestion I have is that I noticed she let go/outted/dropped it/mouthed when you started talking more or louder, even though you were praising her. I would tone down the talking, not even any praising, and when she does hold on for a second, instead of leaning over her to tug forward, facing her, stand sideways and tug from the side or back and don't talk.

I hadn't noticed that about the talking - will try to pay more attention to that! If I stand in front of her she will not engage it. Reachign around like that or even over her does not trigger her to cower. Reaching in front does. I have to bring her around while she is engaging in order for her to not back off fearfully.

 Quote: jennifer marshal

I also agree with the above quote by Steve and his suggestion, and also - is that where you normally do drive work or work with the ball? Or was that just for video purposes?

Video purposes only I usually do it in the backyard or at the nearby football field when it is vacant. Right now she backs down if I am in front at all, but engages when I spin or stay planted. Working up to me moving ;-)

 Quote: jennifer marshal

Also, there were times when your movement blocked her from the ball. I don't know if that was intentional but another benefit of an open area is the ability to move back and circular, like pivoting on one leg when the dog comes around to the side, or to back up versus going side to side and around and back and forward.

When I block her she gets more determined to beat me around to the other side and latches on very quickly. This was how I got her to engage in the first place. I've continued to do it because it continues to get her "over" herself to engage. I'm aiming to get her past this in the next few days. When I back up she gets nervous, but follows. I'm trying to avoid the nervousness triggers for now and just focusing on keeping it fun for her. I'm thrilled she is engaging the ball again - the same ball, incidentally that was used. Not "her" ball, but another ball exactly like it, purchased at the same store! (one of the planet dog ones)

Cameron - Ah, gotcha Whatever works for her. My comment on you blocking with your body was in case you were not doing it on purpose, that kind of physical posture and blocking motion is generally a signal to back off but if she doesn't see it as a threat or correction that is good.

I thought that the small area was for vid purposes but just in case I thought I'd put it out there that open spaces are a godsend for drive work lol. You think you have a big open living room until you get a dog that has lower prey or is working through problems and needs more movement in the item to engage.

Yeah, her issue is specifically with the ball and specifically with interacting with a human with the ball. Everything else she is still great with. THere have been a few times when playing with her that my hand moves too fast near her head AFTER she has the ball where she flinches (but only when it's exactly like I just described) but I'm mostly ignoring that response and immediately engaging her again. You can see that happen once on the tape.

Hi Cameron, I just watched your video and read the other thread on the problems you've been having.

First off, welcome to the reason why I am incredibly reluctant to board my dogs. I dont like people doing anything more with them than letting them pee, poop and eat. If they could do those things without being in the same room as my dogs I'd be even happier

As for the video... let the dog win! I dont care if the dog drops it or holds onto it forever, the dog is losing interest in winning because he doesn't seem to understand that he can win at this game. If you want him to hold onto it a bit longer then put him on a leash and run with him as soon as he has the ball, but he needs to learn that there is a finish line to this game you play with him. For a dog to take something away from someone 4 times their height is a huge confidence builder. I am also sure there is some camera shyness on your part, because I know you can act sillier and be more animated than that

If the dog drops it, then what I do with my dogs is hold them by the collar and kick the ball out from under them, letting their noses get 1/4" away from the ball without being able to grab it and really getting them worked up over it, then quickly snatch it with your hand at the same time as letting go of the collar and going back into prey. Judging by how your dog is, I'll bet he's not going to choke himself trying to strain to get the ball, but each time you kick it away from him and let him get closer to it I'm sure he will attempt to try and grab it. Dogs are competitive. When they see someone else is about to get their ball, suddenly their interest goes up. Reach for the ball slowly before you grab it, like he has to beat you to the punch before you get the ball.

I also see mention of stuff like Protection Training and SAR. It sounds like you have scrapped the idea for bitework, which I am happy you did. But how serious are you about SAR? I would not do any type of work with this dog, especially not something as critical as SAR. An SAR dog should have the same basic qualities as a protection dog qua nerves and drives.

It also seems that you are kinda dwelling on the problems. We all like to see a quick turnaround on improvements in our dogs, but sometimes just leaving it alone and letting it work itself out over a longer period of time is much more effective. Lets say you are scared of frying pans because you grew up watching way too much tom & jerry. It would be far more effective to have you hiding under the table when your friend is frying up some eggs, than it would be to have your friend constantly trying to convince you that frying pans aren't going to hurt you by swinging the thing over your head every morning. Dogs learn best when they figure things out for themselves. It takes longer, but it also sticks better.

Mike - it's funny because I didn't see the post here on this thread and it quickly got pushed off the first page. I actually came to that conclusion as well. She is a different dog when I use the tug, all nervousness and hesitation is gone. I decided to scrap the ball, and if she never goes for it again, so be it. Ever since I stopped bringing it out I have a different dog. (and now I have a rescue that thinks a ball is the coolest thing EVER) She has completely bounced back at this point, same quick energetic responses to commands, etc.

Hi Cameron, I couldn't see the video but I wonder if you would get a difference if you used a different KIND of ball? For example, if you had been training with a tennis ball and now she has a bad experience, try an Orbee or Kong ball. (and vice versa). Just a suggestion! Glad to hear she still likes to play with you.