I agree, meds will not FIX, but are part of the tools that may be needed in some cases. I just want the dogs to settle down some,while we work on trust, and confidence.
I do not have a stable dog in the pack...so that is out of the question....

Every dog will need to be catered to, to get where we need to go, and yes, sadly, may not be able to take some of them very far.

I've done some foster work a few years ago with a true abuse victim. This dog was beyond shut down, he was conditioned to a life of abuse and neglect, was handler aggressive (that's how I found this site), was fearful to the point of soiling himself with men in the room, combined with a terrible case of crossbreed syndrome of cruddy temperament and conflicting drives. In the case of this dog we made the rough decision after 1 year to have him put down because he was beyond saving for any suitable quality of life.

To bring it back to the topic I do believe in the rarest of rare occasions there are dogs that are genuinely medication worthy cases. The problem I have with dispensing a tablet to make the dog better is that the diagnosis by default has to come from the eyes of a human who may not know what the hell they're doing or may not care enough about the situation to be a good advocate for what is best for the dog.

For example
Symptom: Fluffy the wonder Cockapoo has made a habit of eating the master’s favorite pair of loafers while he's at work.
Solution 1 Owner scolds the dog.
Symptom: Fluffy finishes off the shoes and hides the tattered remains under the bed.
Solution 2 Owner scolds the dog.
Symptom: Fluffy goes on to the owner's wife's shoes.
Solution 3 Wife orders husband to do something about the dog. Husband decides to take this issue up with the vet.
Symptom: Husband describes the dog's shoe eating habit to the vet. Vet diagnoses separation anxiety and prescribes a doggie downer to take the edge off.
Solution: A perfectly normal dog has just been given a medication that is potentially harmful over a "normal" behavior.

I worked at a vet office for a little over a year in a very nice neighborhood and separation anxiety was 90% of the time the cause of a dog being scripted one of various forms of anti depressants, sedatives, etc etc. Secondary to that were dogs stressed out from traveling on aircraft. Out of that entire year with 7 practicing vets working full time did I see two dogs that were actually medication worthy imo. The first was a border collie who had taken to self mutilation to the point of chewing off three of her own toes, and the second was a dog that went blind from a seizure and had episodes of absolute madness biting everything in the general area.

I mentioned the dog in the beginning of this simply as an example of people needing to take a step back and critically evaluate what is truly best for their dog and deciding what is fair practice to that dog. In the case of the dog at the beginning of this story we decided it was best to remove his fear and give the dog some peace for once in his far too short life. For the second dog redirection and some medication made a huge difference, I can't say if the redirection or the medication helped more but eventually the dog stopped self mutilating, and the third dog IMO should have been put down but the owner felt they could still provide some sort of quality of life. I really believe 99% of dog problems are actually people problems.

I couldn't agree more, Melissa. The only other case that I have seen it necessary to use meds was a dog that was a "spinner" he would spin in circles to complete exhaustion, and when he would fall over would begin again only a minute or so after collapsing from exhaustion. That guy ended up staying on meds as he has a genetic OCD issue. Definitely should be a LAST resort, and ONLY with a dog that truly benefits from it. NEVER a substitute for training!

Edited by Cameron Feathers (05/19/2008 08:11 AM)
Edit reason: spelling

I too agree Melissa, but this is a no kill rescue I am working with...I intend on using good common sense, with meds and corrective behav mod.....I want to give the dogs a last resort.

Very well put Melissa and I am total agreement.

Denise, what do you mean by corrective behavior modification?

IMO meds are still a last resort, dogs are not humans. To me, the purpose of any medication is to calm the dog I.E. a sedative not an anti anxiety or anti depression pill where being sedate is more of a side affect and still I much prefer to use natural everything.

Most dogs do not need meds. IMO the use of meds for a dog that does not truly need it is a crutch for inexperienced training and/or handling. Not to insult or point fingers as this is towards dogs that don't *need* the medication. The above(Melissa's examples) dogs are good examples of medication being needed in order to address or help the issues.

Anxiety/Fear/Aggression alone are not good reasons to use medication in the normal or ordinary levels. A dog that is a danger to itself for instance and will mutilate or injur itself is one thing, a dog that gets nervous around quick movements is entirely another!

I hope I got my point across without being harsh I don't intend to be despite having very strong opinions on this particular matter.

I'm not a big fan of using meds on dogs, but I have, once. It was only step one in saving the dog's life though; a lot more went along with it. I worked with a dog that was so anxious that he was right on the edge of fight or flight almost all of the time. I used Valium for him until he was able to engage enough to respond to training, and learn a new way to be in the world. He was miserable until we tried the Valium. We weened him off slowly within a few weeks, and by then he had learned new habits and had gained enough confidence to lead a quality life. Of course MANY hours of rehab and training were key here too. He always had some issues with shyness but was handled accordingly and thrived.

Note: I did this under the supervision of a veterinarian, and with the support of an experienced trainer/friend. I wouldn't just 'do it' .

Denise,

I think what would be better is getting a group of experienced handlers together to foster dogs. I find many people who *want* to be fosters are well intentioned people with limited handling skills. They generally mean well but can do little to address dogs with real aggression, dominance, and other problems. Really good fosters imo should be recruited if possible.

Our local shelter does not overnight dogs (except strays) there at all but rather fosters everyone out at night. Dogs in the morning are dropped off on their way to work and then picked up on their way home. During the day the dogs are walked, socialized, and trained by shelter staff and in the evening go home for more of the same with their foster family. This shelter actively seeks experienced handlers in the community and works to introduction train people who are interested in fostering to obedience, dog training, etc before they are ever allowed to take an animal home.

Just a thought.

Melissa

 Quote: Melissa Thom

Denise,

I think what would be better is getting a group of experienced handlers together to foster dogs. I find many people who *want* to be fosters are well intentioned people with limited handling skills. They generally mean well but can do little to address dogs with real aggression, dominance, and other problems. Really good fosters imo should be recruited if possible.

Sadly, I have to adamantly agree. Sometimes even the shelter environment is healthier for the dogs. Biggest challenge I see with foster parents is dealing with separation anxiety. It is HARD to be a hard a** with severely abused dogs, but usually they are the ones who need clear boundaries the most. Too often I see the dogs set back a LOT because they were fostered by someone who couldn't bring themselves to enforce rules/boundaries on the dog.