Q from Mike " It was unclear to me if a trainer had accompanied you on a walk and witnessed first hand the behavior. If so, I would think a decent trainer would be checking the dog whenever a passerby is first seen, and looking front and back and all around in anticipation of an unwanted presence. A behavior cue, positive reinforcement for a good encounter, strong correction at the first sign of a bad behavior.'

A: Mike, in fact all 3 trainers have 1st hand seen this B/L .#2 the present trainer (very well qualified professional, runs a Schutzhund club, has a Sch2 of her own) is experimenting with E collar as a 'last resort.'

Q: Leash protocol: she is on 2 leashes a DDcollar attached to leash #1 (backup) and a prong attached to leash #2.(primary) Prong is the primary control. in the house she always has a 12" 'drag' leash on her collar.


Q:" if - at the first sign of a problem - you turn sideways to the dog and pull the leash across your body perhaps even turning a bit, you shorten the distance the dog can lunge and can use your weight as well as your braced legs to control the dog. And if you correct the dog, you can really correct the dog."
A: I will try this -- have usually put both hands on the prong leash and pulled back with all my might.

Q:"I'm a bit confused in re the ability of and experience of other handlers in controlling the dog. " -

A: the dog has occasionally shown this behavior to other handlers when handling AND in their presence when they ' set her up' with me handling. the difference is the physical strength of #s123 being able to choke her out.

UPDATE:
last night my dearest friend came by early for supper. Dog was free in the house. I said in a cheery voice Here comes Sue! Good Quiet -- When dog saw friend, nevertheless dog went into B/L clawing at the door. friend watched as I used all my strength in a level 9 prong pull, she was off the ground choking for air and still fighting to get at Sue . i then had to physically pull the dog back away from the door to get her into her crate in another room. she went into the crate without incident, no aggression to me whatsoever going in ....

Don't use a prong for aggression issues.

It will only elevate the dogs problem and make the aggression worse. The dog will resent the pain from the correction and associate it with the person they are aggressing on.

Prong = Aggressive Response
Choke = Calming Response

Use the dominant dog collar to calm the dog into a sitting position.

Edit: When using a prong for aggression, you need to do 2 things. Firstly, you need to give a correction hard enough to break the dogs drive, something that is above and beyond the level of correction that will just amp the dog up. Second, you need to understand that in doing so, you aren't really solving the issue, what you are doing is teaching the dog to hide his body language/warning signs, which makes the dog even more "unpredictable." I don't like that word though, there are ALWAYS warning signs, you essentially just make them way more subtle. But most people aren't even capable of reading the obvious signs, let alone the super-subtle ones.

Also, bare in mind that a "Level 9 Correction" for one person is not the same as a "Level 9 Correction" from another person. I know people that bend prong collars on their Level 10 corrections and I know people that barely make the dog blink on their Level 10 corrections. It's all relative.

Using a choker is a far more effective way of controlling the aggression issues. The dog doesn't have the breath to be barking and acting stupid. A prong simply pisses them off more, like shooting a bear with a BB Gun.

Edited by Mike J Schoonbrood (07/01/2008 08:24 AM)
Edit reason: Edited to add more info

Hey Caroline, I think that if the correction is escalating the problem that means it was too late. Mike Arnolds point about control I read as absolute obedience. Distance is important to gain that control. Have you worked on enforcing a sit command with people at a distance that she is aware of them, but not threatened by them and then slowly decreasing that distance? Then she knows she has to sit and if she doesnt its clear to her what she is being corrected for.

IMO aggression should always be dealt with using a non-pain-inflicting collar, such as a dominant dog collar.

There are motivational ways to deal with this, I don't always jump straight to corrections for aggression, but it takes a lot of patience, perfect timing and a lot of skill to get right. Even if the trainer is capable, the handler is the one that needs to be able to do these things because they are the ones who have to live with the dog.

Also, as Steve pointed out, the timing is inappropriate. Once the dog has reached that level then you're pretty much too late. You said it yourself, you can hit the dog with all the corrections you want and the dog will take it and get pissier about it. I wouldn't be able to say whether or not the dog is a fear biter, people are quick to draw that conclusion because they're not used to dealing with aggression.

The lack of warning signs makes getting the timing right more difficult, but ideally, you correct the dog within 1/4 of a second of the dog's attention even turning to the person they are about to bark at. You need to be quick, you need to be firm, as has been mentioned, there needs to be distance, and you need to be really good at reading your dog.

When training a dog in bitework, we also don't jump straight into the decoy standing 4ft away from the dog waving a stick in the dogs face while trying to get control over the dog. We start slow and with distance, then gradually close the gap and the level of agitation from a decoy.

 Quote:

I am not fond of yanking on a prong collar just to do it. I don't like to string dogs up, either. And I'm not all that excited about choke collars but... Some dogs are a challenge.

I'd also like to emphasize this point. My instructions on corrections are more about educating people how to use a tool, rather than advocating its use for a given situation. I'd rather that someone use a choker than a prong for aggression. Beyond that, I would rather people try alternative approaches first. But knowing how people are, we all look for the quicker solution. If I catch my dog eating poop, I am more likely to make the dog think "OH S***!" than I am to try and redirect the behavior. But I believe in choosing the path of least resistance in dog training whenever possible, rather than depending on a prong collar as a quick-fix. As someone wisely said recently, "it's just another tool in the box."

On a quasi-related note; however tempted I was to slap a prong on my dogs to get them to stop pulling on the leash (recently. I never taught them leash manners), I kept the prong collars locked up in the dog trailer and took... *gasp*... a clicker with me on our walk. The first time I ever switched from verbal markers to a clicker.

Sometimes its amazing what you can achieve when you really think about it from the dogs perspective. You really have to break it down into its simplest form. Some people are really good at it. Other people have a hard time with it.

 Quote: Caroline Mitchel

last night my dearest friend came by early for supper. Dog was free in the house. I said in a cheery voice Here comes Sue! Good Quiet -- When dog saw friend, nevertheless dog went into B/L clawing at the door. friend watched as I used all my strength in a level 9 prong pull, she was off the ground choking for air and still fighting to get at Sue .... physically pull the dog back away from the door to get her into her crate ... went into the crate without incident, no aggression to me whatsoever going in ....

 Quote: Caroline Mitchel

just today she pulled the leash out of my hand, and lunged without reason at a man who came silently and unexpectedly around the front of my car.

I don't want to get off topic here -- just a quick question and not dwell on it if the answer is no. Is the dog hard of hearing?

Even if she is, that's not all that's going on, obviously. But if she is, you'll want to factor it in.


P.S. I hope that you're really understanding how crucial the timing issue that Mike and Steve and Mike are talking about is. Barking/lunging is not the point where the correction happens.

"I said in a cheery voice Here comes Sue! Good Quiet -- When dog saw friend, nevertheless dog went into B/L clawing at the door."

To add my two cents to already great advice... This statement stood out to me. It almost seems like you started amping the dog up with your "cheery voice", so that the dog became on guard, wondering what was going to happen next, so that by the time your friend came towards the door, it was all over. He was too amped up for you to be able to break him out of it.

Per Cesar Milan's advice, we have instituted a "no touch, no talk, no eye contact" policy for visitors at my house (as we're dealing with our own exciteable dog.) I have a particular friend who has the highest pitched, squeakiest voice, and he goes crazy on her, trying to jump on her, etc. I've since learned, that type of voice pitch and excitement she demonstrates at seeing my dog only makes her seem emotional and unstable to the dog, making her a perfect candidate for him to try to dominate. She has a hard time visiting and ignoring the dog (she doesn't "get" it, even though she's been told stories about his aggression she doesn't think her "boyfriend" (yes that's what she calls my dog) would bite her. She is coming around though. As I've said, often people are the most challenging to "train!"

Anyway, my point in all that was to suggest trying to keep a calm state of mind when visitors arrive, and having them ignore the dog completely, not even making eye contact with him, until he's calm himself.