Hey guys and Jeannette,
A PP dog as we all know is not the same dog that gets points from a judge. These dogs are similar to Service dogs as to the level of training they receive. It doesn't have to look pretty, just get the job done! I'm not saying Shutzhund dog can or can not. They are trained differently.

The sad thing is so many people purchasse these dogs that can not do either. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

There is a steep learning curve in protection dogs. My first GSD in 1981 was a show line dog that was scared of its own shadow. After 21 years, I finally purchased the FIRST dog with which I have ever been 100% satisfied.

People often think that a year or so of experience and training will lead to success with the first or second dog, but this is rarely the case in reality. The point is to learn what you can from the dog that own, have fun training, and improve the next time.

Dave,

You are correct about the learning curve. I was extreamly lucky to back in to a fully trained SchIII, full bore protection dog for my first experience. Following that I believe that I have been very lucky in selection of dogs. More luck than skill.

I do however think that many people give up on a dog too quickly. For most you have the time to invest to get an acceptable dog for most people. In many cases the 2 biggest things that you need are a dog that will make noise, and out. Every thing beyond that is really gravey. For most of us what we have and what we want are far above what we need.

From earlier:

What you call mediocre nerve I would call weak nerved. What you call weak, I call a basket case/fear biter.

Another problem that tends to be ignored is the enviornmental element to this. This can have an effect both positively and negatively. I think that there is a bigger enviornmental component to this than most people will admit to.

Richard...that explains the difference in interpretation. Many dogs that are fearful only in new situations can be trained to bark aggressively (maybe even nip with front teeth).

The problem is... about 70% of the GSD's I see fall into this category. Some can be trained to cope with new experiences and some can not.

I had a male that I trained and sold who is now SchIII titled under a former police K9 handler (272 points).

The dog has great drive but ran from a paper sack blowing in the wind on numerous occasions... even at 2 years of age.

Dave,

With time and desensitization these dogs can go farther. Most people, and trainers, won't put the time into them. One thing I like about my trainer is that he will work with a dog as long as the owner is willing. He also recomends that the dogs come back for frequent refreshers that he doesn't charge for. He has said repeatedly that the protection training is a money loser for him that he does because he likes to do the training. He makes his money in the 200-30 obedience clients he has enrolled at any one time.

Richard, You a 100% correct on both trainers and owners expecting too much too soon. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> How many times have you heard" my dogs are PP and only 1 yr old. What a bunch of crap!!

I've encountered trainers <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> that will not take the time to work with a slow dog. Is this good or bad, I still don't know. Should the trainers keep charging to work with these dogs or be up front and tell owner that your dog will take a lot of hard work & time to finish. (Do you still want to spend the money it will take to move the dog further on)
I hate to give up on anything I start, but sometimes you have to train only to the level that the dog can work in. No proud K-9 owner wants to hear that their K-9 will have to stay in the minor leauges. You learn to live with what you have and continue to train the dog. If not move onto another dog. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

The importance in getting the proper K-9 in the beginning is so crucial. This is where it all begins. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Great thread. Like everything in life balance is the key. We all know the problems associated with weak nerve dogs but super strong nerve dogs can be difficult to train also. A super strong nerved dog sometimes needs a lot of pressure to react in aggression. Some will not bark in the blind unless you kick the crap out of them because he does not see the helper as a threat. They are also very easily locked in prey. Everyone always says they want a dog with solid nerves. But do you really??

You will never beleive this (I wouldn't if I had not seen it) but I have a dal with what I beleive might be strong nerves. He thankfully also has a wonderful temperment and lives to please. He is crazy for food and a tug and that is how I trained him for SAR and obedience.
This dog is not people or animal aggressive. He loves to play, but when he is done he is done. He has never backed down to any other dog when it counts such as GSD's, Rotties, Pit bulls, and Great Danes. All have submitted to him. He has never barked at anyone or other dogs either, but has never shown submission out of fear except when he went blind and he came out of that quickly. I think he was more confused than anything. He can be tenatious and stubborn though! He is the most confident dog I have ever trained. Is this the type of dog you look for? UP until he went blind I thought of trying him in Sch because of his prey drive and confidence. Wouldn't that be a site! A Sch3 dalmatian! He was the first dal to pass our groups temperment evaluation for SAR! After hearing dal noone thought he could do that either but he did!

I once knew of a goose that was very confident... maybe we could Schutzhund train that too <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Seriously though... confidence is one of a hundred things that are required in a Schutzhund dog. The work typically requires aggression, biting, retrieving, barking, agility, scenting abilities, focus, discipline and many other things. If the dalmation could do all these very well... you may be correct.