Quote:

All work done with the dog is related.

Absolutely. Out is Out, it doesn't matter if there is a sleeve present or not. Nobody starts the Out on the sleeve or with a decoy present. It's always started with a ball or a tug. In the same way, things done in training can also affect a dog outside of the training field. I call these "training side effects." Sometimes they can be a good thing, sometimes they can be a bad thing.

People are harder on their dogs when the dog is in drive, because obviously the dog takes a harder correction when in drive before it "registers." Some dogs, while seemingly unfazed by corrections in drive, will suffer side effects when they aren't in drive. Example, if I give a level 10 OVER-correction to a dog to "sit" while he is looking at the decoy, then the following day I tell the dog to "sit" without the decoy present (like when you're watching TV in the living room), he could be more sensitive to the sit command, and not in a good way if you like "perky" OB.

It's typically the softer dogs that "become hard" (or more accurately, become desensitized to pain/correction) when they are in drive and end up over-corrected, certainly not all dogs. But it is a good example to show how these things are all intertwined. Making a social but not very strong nerved dog overly defensive in bitework can also have very negative effects in day to day life. Everything is connected 100%, but most people forget to take the side effects into consideration. "As long as the dog looks good on the field."

My question was more theoretical then anything else Michael. As in, if you had to deal with one mistake, which would you rather. As someone just getting into the ring, I'm sure I'll make more then one mistake on the way. Hopefully, not one that will bleed into the bite. From my work with gun dogs, I've found that making a mistake with the out is one of the direct ways to messing up a bite.
So if you guys, as seasoned ring masters, were to advise a beginner of one of THE mistakes not to make......what would it be?

If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy

Honestly guys,
I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm just an ignorant green horn looking to pick your brains.
It was an open ended question. What is the problem you see most often in the dogs beginners bring onto the field?

If I'm not learning, I'm not paying attention.
Randy

Randy,
No harm no foul. I've taken your responses as honest and sincere. There are so many different mistakes to make it's hard to put my finger on one. I suppose if I had to put my finger on a problem I'd say; because of the mentality of today's fast food generation it would be, expecting to much to fast from the dog and creating the problems (of all kinds) on a relational level with the dog.

LOL fast food mentality. Good one. Never used that in relation to dogs before, but it works.

 Quote: Mike J Schoonbrood

LOL fast food mentality. Good one. Never used that in relation to dogs before, but it works.

I liked that one, too. Sadly, it applies to everything these days...

Fast food mentality.. Yeah yeah.
Sadly I've seen it from the other side of the aisle as well. Training directors. Even though I may shrug my shoulders and say out loud, "I'm in no big rush". It seems they are, resulting in me seeing the dog pushed too much one more time and then I'm off looking for another place to train. If I had a different dog the big push in defense may be okay, I don't know, but I know it doesn't suit my present one at all. Given the right work perhaps she'll grow into it, but definitely not a big push.

Must be some kind of plot.

Hey, just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get me.
Randy

So the question of the day is, what is the #1 problem on the training field?

Poor understanding of drives, drive development, and rushing too damned much. Too many people think that because they got their dog from good working lines (well, every dog and bitch in my puppy's lineage is a SchH3, dammit!), that the dog somehow instinctively knows what we want from it.

People also aren't prepared for the plateaus that occur in training. They aren't prepared for the dog to suddenly level off, or even go backwards at times. They don't understand that even dogs have "off" days. They push too hard, and take the fun out of it.

Yeah, it was a question I posed Alyssa.
However, meaning to or not it seems I've hi-jacked the thread into a different topic all together. Sorry.

Where is the op? Hey Stanley, your questions; have they been answered? Without some feed back, I'm likely to babble on about the mind set in sport training I've run into and rage about the throw away mentality of the 'sporting class' as a whole.

Stan?


If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy

Alyssa,
You are absolutely right; dogs do have their off days. I have found that it's best not to even train on days where I sense something is off. Whether I sense this about myself or the dog. If you sense it, then more than likely the dog does also. This falls under the category of not rushing the training.
Getting back to the question at hand though: I believe the biggest problem on the training field is the attitude of the trainer, not the dog. I'm sorry if that's not the answer your looking for: just the truth. The sooner trainers begin to recognize this the better their dog will be and the better trainer they will become.
Not to say that there aren't some genetic issues out there or other things going on in the dog but, far and wide most of these problems are caused by poor training and a lack of understanding on the trainers part to read the dog.